Nov. 19, 2020

Season 1 Halftime Review Show

Season 1 Halftime Review Show

In our Season 1 Halftime Show (a/k/a Episode 6), Phil and Ryan (yes, Ryan is finally back in the studio) expand on some of the topics covered by our guests, Paul Jobson, Pete Kipley, Amanda Cromwell, and Eric Pfeiffer, in the first four interviews of...

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In our Season 1 Halftime Show (a/k/a Episode 6), Phil and Ryan (yes, Ryan is finally back in the studio) expand on some of the topics covered by our guests, Paul Jobson, Pete Kipley, Amanda Cromwell, and Eric Pfeiffer, in the first four interviews of the podcast, including:  

  • Overcoming adversity and permission to fail (2:40)
  • Coaching against the negative vs. coaching towards a positive (8:35)
  • The critical role of college coaches in the development of their team as players and people (11:34)
  • The negative side of insecurities and how to overcome them (12:52)
  • Leading from the middle and the characteristics of great captains (17:48)
  • “Have to” vs. “Get to” mentality and servant leadership (24:26)
  • Repercussions of parents who micromanage, coddle, and/or pressure their kids (31:38)
  • Neuroscience and how trauma compromises the brain’s ability to interact with itself (35:29)
  • The four levels of development/growth (40:51)

Resources and Links from this Episode

Uncut video of the episode –

HSEL email –

HSEL Facebook Group --

Think Orphan Podcast –

Legacy: What the All Blacks Can Teach Us About the Business of Life, by James Kerr

Mindset: The New Psychology of Success, by Carol S. Dweck, Ph.D.


Phil:[00:00:00] Welcome back to How Soccer Explains Leadership. I'm excited today because we are now finally able to get Ryan North back with us. My co-host who you have heard in the introduction with our co-host Phil Darke and Ryan North. However, we have not been able to have Ryan in,  since really the first episode that we did for this podcast.

So Ryan, welcome back to the studio.

Ryan:[00:00:25] Thank you, Phil. And in the spirit of, our mutual love for Manchester United, I feel like Anthony Martial, who had just finished serving his domestic ban. Cause I think me not being available and me being available pretty much coincides with Marshall's absence from the starting 11.

Phil:[00:00:44] I don't know if that means anything to anyone out there. even the Manchester United fans, but  that, that is an interesting coincidence that it did coincide pretty well with that. and you did have a foot injury you're out with actually. Foot infection, all kinds of other stuff. We're not going to get into details. Cause this is a family show,  so, but it actually, in all seriousness, one of the things that I was thinking about, as we were talking about pivoting, right?

We talked about that in the first episode, I half joked about it in my interview with Paul Jobson. And that's, that's apparently becoming part of this podcast, but one of the other things that your foot reminded me of what's come up a lot in the first four episodes or four interviews is really the idea of.

Overcoming adversity, right? The idea of failing forward, the idea of, in soccer and in life to overcome these injuries, overcome these obstacles, overcome these issues. we talked about it in the interview with Eric Pfeiffer, where in James, it talks about, consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds, not if you face trial, but when you face trials, that's, what's gonna help you, foster and create the perseverance and the character.

And that's really what ultimately we're hoping we can do with our players. That's ultimately what we're hoping we can do with our people in our organizations is to help them grow and to flourish and to become the best people they are. So what do you think of that? What are some examples that you've, obviously this is a.

A foot injury. It's not the adversity that, you know, a lot of times we're talking about as far as these major life crises or other things that were, our tremendous failures, but it has been something that you've had to overcome over the last few months. That's caused a lot of issues, not to mention, last time we talked, you had taken a COVID test, it came up negative.

But since we've talked, you took a COVID test and it came up positive. So, you know, these are things that, Are some adversities. So what do you think about with that as you listened to those episodes, as you're thinking about it in your personal walk, no pun intended and you're, just everything else that you've seen in your organization, in your family and everywhere else.

Ryan:[00:02:46] it's interesting, you talked about, this idea that leaders have to make people around them better. The thing that was part of the Paul Jobson, interview. but the interview after that was the one I wanted to hone in on when you spoke to Pete Kipley. and he talks about this idea that mistakes are a part of growth, which is something  that really was impressed on us.

And I wish I could remember where I read this, Phil, this idea that for people to truly be able to succeed, they have to know that it's okay to fail. Unless people feel the freedom to fail, they will never actually be successful because they won't ever try the things that they need to try.

They won't ever push themselves. They need that the way they need to, they will always feel sort of restrained by this, this idea that failure is not an option. And that's one of the things we've tried to do with our kids. and one of the things we communicate here at home is, Okay.

sometimes it matters on a sliding scale. What happens when you mess up. Sometimes it doesn't matter at all. Sometimes it matters a great deal, but it doesn't matter as much to me because we'll walk through those consequences together. And sometimes, you gotta take your medicine in life.

we certainly don't feel like it's our job to protect our children from all of that, but certainly is our job to walk them through any kind of difficulty that they have and teach them how to be responsible young people. but I tell, especially with my now 18 year old son, he's heard this the most from me.

Like, if you mess up, we'll deal with it. And yeah, sometimes they will have to be consequences, but I promise you that we'll deal with it together. And so, you know, as far as your mom and I are concerned, that when you mess up, there's nothing that you can do, that will move us from your side.

We will always be on your side and I've watched him as he's really embraced that message. really watch him grow and flourish here. The last couple of years of his life. as I think he finally trusts and believes that his and I are serious when we say that, and we're not just saying it to be heard, but rather saying it because it means something.

And so I, I think that's such a valuable skill in terms of, whether you're coaching a team, leading an organization or parenting, but if people understand That failure is not terminal and that you're with them and you will help them grow and learn from those mistakes. Like when I was coaching, I used to tell my forwards, the only time I'm ever going to get angry at you for being offsite is if you're lazy getting back.

But if, but at that flag goes up because you're just working that defense all night long. I promise you, I'm not going to get mad at that kind of work. And I promise you, good things are going to happen before the 90 minutes are up. because when you coach a forward, and if you have a coach forwards like this, who are just the number one thought is I don't want that flag to go up they're particularly ineffective. See there are tied like parenting leadership and soccer all in one.

Phil:[00:05:34] I mean, that's the beauty of it. We don't really have to try. we talk about it, like riding a bike. What I talk about a lot with anybody in my organization, whether it's my kids as well is whether it's on soccer teams. It's the idea that look, we're going to let you, when you're riding your bike, we're going to let you fall.

We're going to let you skin your knee. We're going to let you potentially even break your arm at some point, because that's what part of riding a bike. Like you're going to have accidents and we're not wanting you to have accidents. We're not pushing you down, but you're going to have accidents. If you're going to learn to ride a bike, we're not going to let you drive off a cliff.

We're not going to let you ride And kill yourself. They're not going to let you ride in front of a car. Those are things we would jump in and stop you from doing But we're going to let you have those failures. We're going to let you have those things, because we know that's, what's ultimately going to help you.

As you said, with Paul that's, what's going to help you be better. Amanda talked about that as well, that a lot of the kids that, these young student athletes, these young women who are coming into our program, their parents haven't let them. Experience adversity.

They haven't let them experience failures and these kids are coming in and they're the best of the program. Paul talked about that, Amanda talked about that. It's because they are the best, They're some of the best in the country, whether they're playing for Baylor or they're playing for UCLA, they're going to be some of the best.

So they haven't really experienced a lot of that. Most of them, if any of them have ever experienced where they're sitting the bench. Maybe if they're playing on the national team, but they're playing on the national team for crying out loud, but in their clubs, in their high schools, wherever they're playing, they're not sitting the bench they're playing and they're probably the star of that team.

but if they don't have the ability to fail and if they don't know what it is to fail and to actually have to overcome that adversity when they hit it, They're going to be paralyzed. They're going to have major issues. They're going to not know what to do. And so as a leader, we need to not only allow for the freedom to fail.

And as Eric talked about in his episode, in his interview, the permission to fail as leaders, how many times, let me go to a different football, Go to the American football. Have you seen a quarterback of a team, throw an interception? And you see the coach pull them aside.

And my guess is they're either saying something along the lines of, if you throw another interception you're out, or, they're not necessarily telling them, Hey, don't worry about it. Just go out there and do your best. It's likely they're going to throw another interception because they're feeling that pressure.

And if they're feeling that if I throw another interception, I'm out. They're probably not going to perform at their highest level because going back to a lot of the chemical brain chemical, things like that, where you have cortisol flowing through your body, you're going to be more tense and frozen up than you are when people are given you that, Hey, you know what?

You have that permission to fail. You do your best out there. And you're going to get a lot better results from that. And that will be what makes your players better. That's when it can make your employees better, that's going to make your kids be the best they can be and to flourish.

What do you think about that?

Ryan:[00:08:20] Well, to your example, there, the coach speaking to the quarterback on the sideline it's to me, I don't like that for a bunch of reasons. couple of them being that you're coaching against the negative, instead of coaching towards a positive, one of the things we talk to parents about all the time is, say yes, if you can.

But if you have to say no, then you have to say no, and then they'll set us all. my children they have these big responses whenever they hear the word. No. And so we would tell them, well, use this tool we use at home called a yes sandwich. And basically it's yes, no, yes. So you say yes, like, Hey, can we go and play with the neighbor across the street?

Yes. You can play with the neighbor across the street. Not today, unfortunately, because it's getting dark. But let's plan on having you do it tomorrow. So the kid walks away with a lead in with a positive, the lead out with a positive. And you still told them no in the middle, and you talked about brain chemicals that has a completely different effect on a brain hearing.

You can do it wrapped up in a no. As opposed to, if you mess up again, there's going to be consequences. I used to years ago work at a private Christian school and the athletic director had resigned. And, it was in the middle of, a football season. And for those of you who don't know anything about Texas.

we love God guns and Friday night football here in Texas. maybe not even in that order Friday night football, especially when you get out into central and West Texas in the smaller towns. they've rabid like support for these high school kids. and so obviously when we were bringing, these guys in to be interviewed for the position, they all wanted to go to football practice and evaluate the team and give us their opinion.

So, Part of my responsibility on that interview committee was to go with these guys to practice. And every single one of them would look and basically tell me how they coach differently. The guy we actually ended up hiring and he got my vote was because of this they're running this play and the receiver goes in motion from right to left, goes just behind the linebackers.

So it's maybe eight or 10 yards deep and then cuts across and he gets the ball while he's running across the formation the other way. Hits the receiver, in the numbers and the kid drops the ball whistles start blowing their head. Coach comes racing over and gets in this kid's face and screams, dude, you got to catch that ball, dude, do it again to which the gentleman next to me, he doesn't look at me, but he says that I in coaching and I said, yeah.

And he said, Your coach offered zero to that kid to help him catch the ball. He offered zero to make him better. The only thing your coach did was tell the kid what he already knew. He already knew he had to catch the ball, yelling at him to the catch. The ball does not develop him or coach him. It just frustrates him.

And I learned a great lesson that day on the sideline because pointing out the obvious to people while you may feel it. validates that you're right. Which by the way, if you're in the business of wanting to validate you the rightness of your position, I'm not sure that leaderships for you in any case.

but you have to develop people in the way that actually develops them, not in the way you think they should be developed. which is why, I'm glad that the show in my absence had some college coaches on because. you're still not just responsible for developing them as athletes on the surface.

That's true. But you bear the responsibility for developing them as people as well, which is why coaching college sports is possibly more difficult than coaching, professional sports, because of the dual responsibilities that you have towards the young people.

Phil:[00:11:52] And it's been something that I've been really pleased with is  the first few episodes have been the cross section that we're looking for. So yeah, we have the coaches from the game, To have that, As you said the cross section there, as far as them experiencing these kids, they're not kids, they're not adults yet, but they're growing them up in this amazing time where they can help them discover their identities, help them understand who they are as people help them understand what it means to lead, what it means to grow, and they're just in that form those formative years. And so they're able to actually. Really impact them to understand these principles that we're talking about on this show. And so it's just this great almost Petri dish of, testing and experimenting on how we can best develop leaders best develop human beings.

 and honestly, one of those things that we talked about. I talked about it with Eric Pfeiffer on the last episode, the last interview, was really idea of overcoming insecurities. And, and you talked about that coach railing into that player and just saying, catch the ball, catch the ball, catch the ball, whatever it is.

I mean, you know, at first touch first touch, first touch, with the keeper. If you yell at a keeper after they make a mistake, as I talked about through it, my wife and I. If you're going to learn this saying, if you haven't already, if you shank the shot, you don't need someone telling you, you shank the shot, especially when you're insecure, especially when you don't know your identity, especially when you're forming this understanding of who you are and what you believe in and what you believe about yourself.

And as Eric talked about this idea of self-love. Not narcissism, not focus on self all the time, but understanding who you are. I like to, I like to refer to it as a self respect because I think self-love has different connotations, especially in our society, but this idea of self respect, where we respect and we know who God created us to be.

We know who we are and what our gifts and talents are. We have an understanding and a self-awareness of who we are and what we have and what we're uniquely created to do. And that's really hard to know when you're 15, 16, 17 years old. It's really hard to know when you're 35 or 45 or 55. But to have that understanding is something that when bad things happen, when people rail into you, when you're able to handle that differently, but when you're 15, 16 and your insecurity and not sure.

And I can tell you, and you know, this, you coach high school. I coach high school. I've told my daughter, she goes, do you think anyone's like, do you think all the girls are insecurity? Do you think some, are I go? Yeah. Absolutely. They're high school girls. Yeah, there, they can put on this air of, I am confident, but usually that comes out of an insecurity.

Now, are there mature people who are mature beyond their years? Sure. But honestly, I still think at a high school level, you just it's, I don't know that you're, it's possible that you're fully self-aware and you're fully secure in who you are and who you're created to be, and maybe I'm wrong. And I'm sure I had there as

Ryan:[00:14:37] if you think Phil's wrong, please email him at.

Phil:[00:14:39] I have been wrong before, believe it or not. so that's, that's something that, but all that to say, I think the point is these insecurities. Cause when you're insecure, the manifestations of insecurity usually is lashing out at others. Yeah. Usually, depending on the personality either it's withdrawing and just going in and not wanting to interact because you don't feel confident enough to go in or it's.

Lashing out at others. And that, again, it's usually a personality thing. Usually the more direct people are going to lash out, they're either going to get angry, they're going to mad, or they're going to lash out and blame everybody else for their problems. And that's what you see actually in the, quote unquote leaders who aren't really leaders, but they just have titles and they're insecure.

in who they are. And they often will just lash out at their employees, they'll lash out at their players.  Eric talked about that really as when he was in high school and he wasn't at all secure and who he was and he would lash out and I played with him and I know I saw that and he'd get mad and, if we got scored on he'd blame, everybody else, if he didn't, score a goal, he blamed the past or he'd blame this, or you'd blame that.

Yeah. That's not bashing on him. He was the one who said, it's just, again, when you're insecure, that's going to happen. So really that idea of how can we. Encourage and build up that understanding of self-respect that understanding of self-awareness helping our players to understand, to take full responsibility of their part of the problem, rather than just having everyone blame everybody else and having a team that's full of dysfunction because everyone's blaming everyone else.

Because unfortunately we sat in families. We see that in organizations, we see that in teams and the ones that are the healthiest teams are the ones that are taking that responsibility for their actions, for their mistakes. Going back to Amanda's interview, where she talked about that national championship team, where you saw a goal scored on what was a total blunder in the back.

we've all seen it. You've seen it in a premier league where a defender gives a soft pass back a hospital ball, as we often refer to it. the Virginia girl came in, took the ball away and scored. It could have easily that could have imploded a team that was unhealthy and wasn't secure, but because the team was healthy, they were able to come back and say, all right, we got this, let's do this together.

So that's really that idea of, I know something that you've got a lot of experience with is just the insecurity is whether it's in your home, whether it's in the organizations, whether it's with the people that you're working with in your organization. So why don't you take that a little bit

Ryan:[00:16:52] Phil

I almost can't keep up with all of the things that I want to say in response to what you just said. So I'll try to, go stream of consciousness when we talk about players, in the context of what we're talking about, these may be people with squad numbers on their back, or it may be people whose paychecks, you sign or volunteers who you are grateful for.

Or people who call you daddy. in terms of thinking, my responsibilities are the same on some level to all of those different constituencies in terms of leadership, in terms of development, in terms of helping them be the best version of themselves, I think it was, your interview with, Pete and correct me if I'm wrong, where you guys talked about this concept of leading from the middle.

when I was a young coach, my first season I made the mistake of thinking that the person that gets the armband is the best player on the field. I think a lot of young coaches make that mistake. because somehow you think that because they're the one that's typically the kid who scores the goals.

But what I came to understand is that the real leader of the team is the most level-headed person who understands the game. In terms of the rules of the game, but it also has some tactical awareness to them that some of the other kids don't have, to me, that's the guy I'm always looking for in the armband.

And so what I've learned again is the people with the resume who the outside world looks at and says that should be a leader. That doesn't necessarily make you a leader. You have to have some skills that can be developed. And when it's obvious that you have this idea, this concept inside of you, that you want the people around you to be better. to me, that's somebody that I can really work with. and then mentor them into the fullness of their leadership of that organization   I think those are important things, That's why, when we batted this out idea about how soccer explains leadership, around and whistled in the infancy of this thing, and I'm excited to see the kinds of conversations we're having two years from now, as we really mature in that idea. because it, is a valuable skill set that is in short supply and, these people,  like Paul and Amanda who you've had on and some other coaches that we'll have on in the future who really are investing in not just the athletic, but in the personal development of these young people.

That's amazing. in the trauma care world, we talk about the ACEs adverse childhood experiences study. Well, there's an ACE quiz that has 10 questions. There's also a resiliency quiz. So you can have your ACE score, but you can also have your resiliency score, which is what we want.

We want resilient people, people who can bounce back from adversity. And that's why. the division one soccer game. So interesting because like Paul said, we've got a collection of kids who were the best player in their town. And now they're just one of those players on the team. And a lot of the kids struggle with that and they've got to work the kids through.

something that is really, real adversity for the children, whether it's real adversity or not, that's personal, but a lot of the kids really, really struggle with that. I had a friend who,  so this story's about 20 years old, but, her brother was a starting quarterback on his, at the time five was the biggest, debate, Division here in Texas.

And he, senior year of high school, he won the Texas five, a state championship as a starting quarterback, lots of fun. We went to the game, it was then an old Texas stadium back then. and he ended up playing a Texas except that he didn't play a Texas, because he's a little undersized for your division one quarterback.

and so he ended up, on the team as a third string quarterback for one season. And then he was washed out of the program because he, his whole identity was wrapped up in starting quarterback, he's life spiraled. just every bad thing that you thought of, except for getting arrested and being incarcerated, every other potential negative.

Any of the listeners thought of when I said his life spiraled were true, because his entire identity was wrapped up in starting quarterback. And when that wasn't real anymore, His life just crumbled. And I think that's an important thing for us too, as we develop people to understand that there's so much more than what they're able to do.

As people, they have so much more value than just as people who can do things.

Phil:[00:20:52] I love the idea of the leading from the middle. It's something that I talk about time with people. I talked to my daughter, in fact, just recently, she was not named captain of a team and she was bombed as you might expect. I think it's funny too. Cause she's like the number one vice captain or something.

She's like the second captain, they have a captain co-captain and she's The vice captain. So she's third in line, whatever. She's like the speaker of the house. so, she comes home and we talked about it and we talked about in the past, she has she hasn't been named captain in the past.

We've talked about, I go, does that mean you're not a leader? And she says, yeah, No, no, of course I'm a leader, And I said, good. Cause that's what we've talked about. Right. Because she knows. And I said, and you lead, you lead, you're a leader. You're going to lead. whether you're have that band on or not your lead.

I've talked to my players on the high school teams that you're a leader. Whether you're a name captain or not, you are leading somebody. Everybody is leading somebody. We talked about it actually during that interview with Paul. What's funny too, though, as I mentioned, she's like this third in line and for whatever reason, the third in line gets to carry the equipment.

She's basically the equipment manager. That's what, that's the reward for being third in line. it was interesting to me because there's this great book called legacy. And I know this is going back to the all blacks thing for you. So I apologize if it's going to cause more issues in our friendship, but, the legacy book were talks about sweep.

The sheds that's one of their things is that, that the captains the best players on the team are the examples. They're the ones sweeping the sheds. They're the ones that are cleaning up the mess. And they're the ones who are carrying the equipment. They're the ones who are doing that. They are leading.

By example, they are leading by serving. And that's what I told her. I said, what a great thing that you get to do for your team, you get to serve your teammates. And that is such a huge part of leadership. And that's something that I said, do that with fervor, do that the best you can do it because that's going to show that's going to shine.

Don't complain about it. Don't get bummed. Don't, bring attention to yourself for doing it, just do it and do it with excellence because those are the things that maybe not 12 year olds are going to notice that. But 16 year olds are gonna notice that coaches are gonna notice that employers are gonna notice that if you're not asked to do things, or if you are asked to do things and you do it quietly and with excellence, that's going to be noticed whether you think it's noticed or not, it's going to be noticed.

And those are things that I know with my, as you said with your kids. When I see my kids quietly, without looking for a claim, just doing the dishes or picking up messes, Or cleaning up. So they see something on the ground and they rather than walking by it, cause they didn't do it. They pick it up and they throw it away.

These little things we notice. I mean, you notice it as a parent. I notice as a parent, when I see that as a coach, when I'm watching my players and I see one of them, you know what? Just pick up the balls. We don't have to ask, Hey, can someone go grab the ball against that fence? They're already running to get it before practices over they're coming and putting in the bag.

They're carrying the balls to the coach's car, whatever it is, those little things. That's leadership. Yep. That's the servant leadership that we talk about that is true leadership and it is influenced. And that is what creates healthy cultures. Those are all these things that we're talking about are all parts of building the healthy cultures that people are leading.

By example, people are leading by being first on the field, doing drills, being the last off the field, making sure that they're working on whatever they're leading by juggling, they're leading by, whatever it is. You're doing it with excellence and you're doing it right. Not because somebody said you have to, not because somebody asked you to, but because you know, it's right.

And that's what you're going to do. that was something that I loved that pattern over the last few interviews.

Ryan:[00:24:11] so if I can just say something about your conversation with your daughter, because essentially what you told her was, you don't have to, you get to. And I think if we can help people understand that mindset that nobody's making me stack the chairs, I get to stack the chairs and it changes your attitude.

And you can find joy in small things because, it's like our pastor said the other day, if somebody calls me and said, pastor, I just feel like the Lord wants me to speak to 20,000 people. My first question is how many people have you spoken to before. And if they tell me zero, I'm like, you don't get to go from zero to 20,000.

That's not how it works in reality. and this idea of paying your dues, which is a really a hard thing now, because you can have an enormous amount of following on social media. but we've really kept that cause, I think you and I are close enough in age that we're probably old school enough in the way we think about these things.


Phil:[00:25:03] know.

Ryan:[00:25:05] I'm a big believer in paying your dues. And in my twenties, I didn't like doing it. but, I tell people this we'll have ministry leaders contact us and say, Hey, we need some advice on how to grow our ministry, how to, with the next phase of the organization, how we can make it better.

and those kinds of things. And I will typically ask this question. who does the public speaking for your organization? And they will say what I do with the smile on their face. I said, well, who stacks the chairs and cleans up afterwards when you're done, but we have volunteers for that.

And then I wondered to myself, okay. Because I think that if speaking on the stage and inspiring people and communicating organization's message is beyond you. That's problem. But if stacking the chairs and cleaning up afterwards is beneath you, that's equally as larger a problem, because I think that you have to be able to run the full gambit of everything that wants to do what has to be done with the same amount of enthusiasm and joy.

I love public speaking. But I'll also stack the chairs because I know that's part of the job. And so, oftentimes people think that, being a leader gives you some sort of high British nobility privileges, but. It's not, it is showing people the way and developing people around you.

which is why, I'm so thankful for the people who have mentored me in my life. And whenever we get an opportunity to speak into the lives of ministry leaders, families, and kiddos as well, I'm really, really grateful for that opportunity because, if we're not sharing the things that have helped make us better, Then we weren't really deserving of those things being invested in us, in my opinion.

Phil:[00:26:42] Absolutely. and that's something that I've talked so much about actually wrote about it in, in pursuit of orphaned excellence, with the idea of the get versus the half to CS. Lewis has a great quote on that, where he says, duty as a crutch and it's a substitute for love, and you'd never use a crutch and you know this with your foot, right.

You'd never use a crutch if you don't have to. Right. Who's crazy. Like you're not going to use crutches. They're no fun. But that duty is a crutch and it's a substitute for love. And when you love. You're going to do these things, but sometimes you have to have the duty. Sometimes you do need to do it because someone told you to, or, you know, it's right.

Or whatever, but that hopefully is in the process of learning it so that you actually know that it's a get to not a half, two. And the example I've always used with that in my parenting is with my daughter. I use this when I'm speaking overseas, I've used this when I'm speaking at the little tiny group and I've used this just now on this show with the idea of, I often will say dishes are the kryptonite of our family. Like we're doing everything great. And then we're having a great family dinner. It's like, Hey, can you do the dishes? And then everyone just it's like world war three in our home. because everyone hates it. And I'd say that typically, and everyone tends to laugh like you are now because it's probably not just in the dark house.

That that is the case. And so for whatever reason, that's your says, but one day she was watching, she was probably 12. She was babysitting the younger kids. and we came home, my wife and I, we came home from a date and we're sitting there and my daughter, my 12 year old meets us at the door and she's just beaming and so excited.

And she just looks at us and we're going, what is going on? What did you break? What what's the problem who's hurt because she was just way too excited for us. Well, she goes, Hey, come here. And she walked us into the kitchen and I swear it was like, those commercials where the little stars are. Of off of the counter, everything was just beautiful in our kitchen.

It was the cleanest it's ever been when we got home and she was so excited. And it was because she did this for us because she got to do it. And she knew that it would bring us joy and she knew that we would love it. And she knew that it was going to be something that we were going to be excited about.

And Becca looks at me. She goes, Phil, don't say anything stupid. We want her to do this again. So I didn't say anything stupid, but I did say at least I don't think it was, but I did say, Hey Molly, I'm so excited that you did this. Thank you so much. And I just want you to understand that you are so excited because you did this because you know, this is going to bring us joy.

It wasn't because you had to, it wasn't because it was something you were forced to do, but something you got to do. And I just want you to understand, this is way God sees us. He wants us To do things because we know it brings him joy and the same way we do that for our parents.

the reality is we can do that in our organizations, in our teams and our everything. When you see it as a get to you, get to juggle, because it will make you a better player. You get to work on fundamentals because it'll help you in a game to be able to do things. These things that are seemingly tedious, seemingly you know, really boring and awful.

Things that, you know, and I think about a lot of those fundamental tactical trainings that go on forever and ever in my opinion. And yet it is it's miserable for a lot of people. Some people love it, but. I don't And I'm not one of those that loved that. and you know, I've joked about it in the past episodes and I'm sure it'll come up again in future episodes, but that was not something that I just was  super excited, but you know what?

I knew I had to do those things. And ultimately when I got to the point where I realized that it could actually make me into the best player I can be, it did become a gift to, and the fact that when you really think about it, I do have two legs that I can do these things I get to run. I get to train. I get to go to practice.

I do have a job where I get to go to a job and work on these things. I get to go to school and be able to learn. I get to get, you know, whatever it is. It's something that. When you get to that point, it's such a massive shift. And going back to all those other issues, that we've been talking about in this, that understanding, it's just the fact that it gets you versus have to, that goes so far in life.

Ryan:[00:30:38] Absolutely. No, that I was thinking, when you were telling the kitchen's story there, that's, you. Me, you and my wife will know each other personally, we've never met Becca dark. And I think that is something that needs to be remedied as soon as possible, because she sounds exactly like my wife, who would, the only difference is if I told that story, my wife was said after she smacked me on the arm, she would have said, don't say anything stupid and ruin this.

Yeah. Yeah, my mama,

Phil:[00:31:08] my wife actually rubs my arm when she wants me to stop walking. It's a, it's a very subtle, I love you, honey. Now shut up please. So, it's really good. so, you know, I think that One of the other things. And, we've talked about a lot of things over that past few episodes.

We can't cover all of them.  we talked about healthy cultures, which is just critical developing those. I think we had some great stuff in those. but one of the things that I did want to mention as we're finishing up here is the idea of. Parents, because I think that it goes to not just, the parents with their children, but a lot of the other principals and leadership principles that we talk about, but parents that are micromanaging and pressuring their kids.

Pete, Kipley talked about it. Amanda talked about Amanda actually talked about in the context of recruiting, where she said, look, if I see parents. Railing on their kids. And I see parents yelling at the refs all the time, and I see parents yelling at the coaches or doing whatever. I'm not going to bring that player into my team because I doubt they're going to be healthy.

I mean, the likelihood of their being healthy, I just can't take that risk. and I've heard employers say something happens. the employee, something happens to them and they give them a, Punishment of some kind or discipline of some kind. And they've told me 26, 27 year old employees, their parents will call them, call the employers and talk to them and they're going, what is going on in this world?

But this idea of the micromanagement, the idea of, it's not letting the kids launch quite frankly, but I see it with. Parents oftentimes, and I've seen this, unfortunately, either. it's super intense, definitely, but it's either they have never played the game. And so they're wanting to live through their kids a lot of times or something along those lines or they just feel like this is their kid is so good.

We have to get them the best. They can be no matter what at all costs. And. That never turns out. Well, even if they're really good players, usually one, one of the few things happens. they burn out, or they play for the wrong reasons. or they get to college. And again, it's that, they're never facing that adversity, because their parents have been the helicopter parents and coming in and saving the day, if anything goes bad.

but usually. At the end of the day, usually they're performing without that freedom to fail without that ability to do, like we've talked about in the past, it's not a get to, but it's a half too. so they never get to experience this joy of playing, they never get to geeky come health and they never had the opportunity to become healthy.

human beings because the parents are coming in at that hard level. And I I've seen it with bosses too, right there. Their employees are not able to flourish at the highest level because the bosses are micromanaging. Everything they're doing, they're not giving them that encouragement and that love as it goes back.

I think the. And that coach, I mean, this is really coming full circle in the conversation because that coach that you referred to is really the, an example of what a lot of parents are doing as well is they might not be saying it right at the moment. But as Pete and I talked about, like Pete said, I don't talk to my kid about soccer, unless he asked me a question and usually it's not for about, for a while.

I have talked about it with my kids, because if they ask me, cause I'm a coach, whatever, and they know that I know a lot of that stuff, but it's something that I think it depends on each relationship. But the one thing that I can say pretty much across the board is if you are super micromanaging and you are making it more about you.

Then about your kid, then there are big issues that's going to have, I don't think anything but negative repercussions. So what are your thoughts on that as you listen to those interviews, as you were thinking about it, from your perspective and I, and I've got to say there's moments, it's not like I'm perfect, Phil.

I mean, people that are listening to this that have seen me coach that have seen me as a parent, I've had moments where I'm not necessarily. Proud of them. I don't know how much I'm going to be talking about them on here, even because I'd like to forget them quite frankly. But if you see it as a pattern and if you see it as a norm, rather than as the exception to the rule, then there are things that we really need to remedy.

I think, in the way the parents are handling it. So what would you say as far as advice to parents as far as, Talking about what Pete and Amanda specifically talked about with the parents in this regard and how that does apply to the business world, to the organizational cultures out there as well.

Ryan:[00:35:14] so let me go a little neuroscience light here for just a minute, Phil.  we know especially since, the majority of our work is with foster and adoptive folks with the, parents or organizations, We understand how trauma compromises, the brain's ability to inter to interact with itself.

not just in terms of left, right, but in terms of up down as well, and a lot of kids, for a myriad of reasons that we don't need to go in here have compromised inter. brain communication skills. Now that's a problem for a couple of reasons. Number one is if you have an emotional response, being able to have logic and reason, counteract that and help bring your mind to a better place is more difficult, but also, accessing the prefrontal cortex.

it becomes more difficult as well. Think of it as somewhere between really bad dial-up internet and no internet at all. And so part of their prefrontal cortex, there are the executive functions of the mind, the aid of them. And one of them is creative problem solving.

And so a lot of complaints I get from families is that my child doesn't think it through my child is not thinking this through. I'm like, well, because we don't give our children any practice at it because whenever there's a problem, we just tell them how to solve the problem. That's not developing the kid, that's not developing the player.

That's not developing the employee or the volunteer or whatever the, your relationship might be to them. It takes a little bit longer. And this is a perfect example of leadership. It's not about just giving the answer that that's fine for management, I guess, but if we were contrasting management versus leadership, Then part of it, your responsibility is to develop that person, which means I have to take the time to develop them.

And so with our kids, let's say I'm stuck. And I said, okay, well, what do you think we should do not. I have clarity about, about what we should do. It's like I tell my wife the other day, I'm not always right. But I'm never indecisive, whether I'm right or wrong, that's for others to decide or for the results to determine, but I'm rarely indecisive.

So I have to take a breath and step back from that, because if you're interested in truly developing people, then you will. try to reach them in a way that's beneficial to them. It's not about conforming them to the way you view the world or conforming them to your world. It's about getting their buy-in.

and I'm not saying you have to govern by committee or consensus. That's not what I mean, but if you truly want people to go with you, you have to get them on board. And so you can present the information in a way that they're able to receive it. And if your usual style is banging your fist on the table and yelling.

And you're working with people who close off to that, then you need to not do that because you have to get those people and bring them with you. So in response to your original question, I would say that if we do want to develop problem solving skills in our young people, whether those be our players or our kids, and whether that be in the terms of parenting or in terms of their development as athletes for the parents, you have to invite them into finding the solution and not just mandating it all the time, because you may end up with a pretty gifted player at practice who can juggle the bowl a hundred times perfectly, or just pop it off the crossbar steady at, but pop it back.

Like Ronald Dania did in that joke of Anetoh addled as years ago, but you're not going to end up with somebody who's a creative problem solver. And that's why I really, really gravitate towards the beautiful game because. Unlike most sports, it does allow for that creative element. there is a level of expression that players can have, American football.

Every 15 seconds. Somebody tells somebody what else to do, what to do next. even, even rugby, which seems like the free flowing, version of American football, they run very specific sequences in plays from certain situations that they try to create during the game, soccer, we have set pieces and then basically.

You got to put all the pieces together, right? We can talk about bowl possession. We can talk about passing. We can talk about, how to play, do all the drills that let you play in Barcelona's ticket ticket style. But at some point the kids still have to go out there and do the thing. And if we've not developed their problem solving skills and their creative thinking, I think it really, really hinders the expression of those things that we try to teach them the training.

And the same absolutely is there's a 100% correlation with parenting.

Phil:[00:39:26] I think that that is so good. And that's what I love about this, where you can. Bring in the actual neuroscience to it, that isn't something that you just read in a book or that you want, maybe something you read in a book, but it's also something that you're living out and you're doing, you're doing in your organization.

It's what It's what you do. So it is something that's part of who you are. And it's not like, because I have read those things in books and I totally agree with them, but for me, it's just. Telling you and regurgitate and somebody else's stuff. So, the idea of really getting the best out of our kids, the best out of our, teams, the best out of our organizations, the best out of our employees, whatever it is, that's really The goal that we have for this is to help others to flourish. Somebody asked me,  what would you hope someone says about you when you die?  what do you hope? And I I've written my eulogy. I've done that stuff, which is kind of more of it as we've talked about, in the past, but at the same time, I think it's super helpful for, understanding who you really want to be and to be able to put things up against that mirror, so to speak.

But I really brought it down to this essence of  I just really want to glorify God by helping others to flourish. And  that really  is at the core of leadership, that's the core of what it is that we should be doing with others and when you do that, you're going to serve them.

You're going to really seek to help them to get through. and it's interesting because Eric Pfeiffer again, last interview, we did last episode, he talked about the four, levels of growth, the four levels of development and the patterns that we go through and really anything that you want to get great at.

it really goes through the honeymoon phase of this is so much fun. This is amazing. And you see kids do that when they're playing soccer and they're just joy and it's fun. It's fun, it's fun. But if you want to get that next level, it gets really hard. And that's the, as he called it, level two is the ISOC phase.

I think he put it in different terms, but that's really the idea. And he said he could have used a very different language depending on the different podcast, but that's really the idea that I'm no good at this. it's way too hard. And most people don't get past that phase because they just give up.

But it's, that's, I think the most important part for the coach, for the leader in whatever it is to be for the parent to be able to come in during that phase and not micromanage it. And not force it and not come in and say you're terrible. And reinforced the idea that you stink at that.

But to come in and to be able to help them to flourish, if that is something that you see that they are gifted at and that they can go to that next level, or even if they're not gifted, but they want to go to whatever level of it. That you can come in and encourage them. You can come in again, going back to the bike analogy.

You can get them back up on the bike. You can help them to ride and to get past the injury, to get past the difficulty, to get past that into know that it may be, not be the right time right now, but to say, if you ever want to get to that level, I've told that to my kids many, many times. If you want to get to the level, I will push you to what the level that I know you need to get to, to get there.

If you don't want to get the level, just tell me now and I'll stop. we won't talk about it and you don't need to play soccer. You don't need to play an instrument. You don't need to do whatever it is, but if you really want to get to the next level, I know what it takes to get there.

And I'm going to push you in that, in the right way, knowing their personalities know who they are, but then once you get past that second phase, then it does get to the you're really enjoying it. And you're getting to that level of. Conscious. I forget exactly what he called it, but just that conscious being good at something, he called it something really cooler than that, but that's really the idea.

And then it gets to a muscle memory where you are doing it without even thinking. And that's what you see at the professional level. You see that muscle memory in a lot of ways, but the way they keep it, muscle memory is by working on it. Over and over and over and over in practice. And so it's not something that you ever stop and you're going to get continually going through that bays even the best of the best get to that phase.

Because again, they get to that next level, whether they're going from high school to college, from college to pro and they realize. I'm not good there. Go back to that. I'm not good enough phase again. And so it does take those brilliant leaders to be able to come in and get the best out of the people that are under their care that are under their leadership, which is such a phenomenal responsibility.

I think we can end it here. And with any thoughts you have on that, but just end it with this thought that leadership shouldn't be a half too. It should be a get to it's a half too. I don't think you're going to be a good lead. I don't, I don't know that it's possible to be a really, really good, excellent leader when it's a half to agree.

I think you can manage, like you said, but in less, it's a get to. I think you're just going to be going through the motions. And I think you're going to actually often do more damage than good. So what are your thoughts? I know you said I agree already, but it, maybe I said something else that you don't agree,

Ryan:[00:43:55] I'll have two closing thoughts.

 my initial thought is, responding to the idea if I don't have to, I get to, my wife and I  developed a six week course for parents  to help them understand trauma, help them understand how relationships are compromised and help them to better reach out and connect with their kiddos.

 I didn't know. if you've ever done anything like that, I don't know how many of our listeners have ever done anything like that, but it's not  15 minutes of work to develop, about, nine hours of content. Each class is 90 minutes and then all the followup stuff.

So it was so it's a lot of content and there's a lot of back and forth and there's a lot of iterations of it. And there's a lot of. Going to bed at 2:00 AM, because that's when we were finished the work session  but I never ever feel down about that because I never ever feel, Oh, what a hard knock life I live.

I went to bed at two o'clock as we were working, but we find great joy, join it because we get to do something that benefits other people. I don't know. What do you think about Simon Sinek? but I get a quote him because he was born in South Africa. like I was, and he said that profit, isn't a purpose.

It's a result to have purpose means that the things you do are of real value to others.  and that's leadership, man. If the things I do are not a value to those around me, then I'm not sure I'm leading them. And so, Direct response to you, having an attitude of, I get to do this means that I will feel like it's a privilege that I get to do this.

And I will certainly respond from a place where I view the task, the assignment, or whatever you want to call it as a privilege, rather than a chore. That was forced upon me. So yeah, my mindset matters. one of my favorite books is mindset by Carol Dweck. I wonder if you've read that or not, but fantastic book.

Phil:[00:45:38] I haven't, but it's been referred to me on think orphan and now it's been referred to me on how soccer explains later. So that's probably a hint that I need to, I think it's  in my audible, cue, but that's a really long queue. I think this is a hint though, that I need to read mindset by Carol.

Ryan:[00:45:57] Yes, that's right. DWC K it's fantastic.

Phil:[00:46:01] with that book recommendation, that's often how we end these episodes. Anyway, that was totally unplanned. We are just on track right now folks.

So but in all seriousness, that is a really good place To finish up because you talked about it really right there. The idea of leadership is privilege. it is a privilege. Unfortunately, we hear that word thrown around in a lot of different ways today.

Right. Privilege, privilege, privilege. But it is a privilege back to the old classical. Word privilege. it's a responsibility as well, but it's something we get to do. It's something that is not a right. You don't have a right to lead because you have a title. Yup. It's something you earn, it's the influence.

It's something that you're in that respect. leadership is thrown around and leaders are thrown around in our country so often in our world. So often that we've forgotten that actually leadership is influence going back to that first interview with Paul Jobson.

And it's something that we get to do. And it's something that if you don't see it that way, then you're probably not leading. with that, I think that's a really good place to finish up today. And I just want to encourage you folks out there. If you haven't already go to the Facebook group, that we have to be able to get, go deeper into this conversation.

Go deeper there to be able to understand, a little bit more to ask questions, might get some sneak previews of who we're going to be having on as guests to may the last. To get to some questions that you can ask them. but any questions you have from our guests, any questions you have for me and Ryan, you can do it there.

You can also, email at And we can, take those questions there as well. Any recommendations for guests love to get those as well and honestly, is if you can connect us with those people and we can have the conversations to see if they'd be a good fit to have on the show, we'd love for you to be able to be a part of this, want to hear feedback from you as well.

 if you can tell us, how. We're doing well, how we're helping you, how, what you'd like to see more of to be able to have you really be a part of making this show, what we think it can be.

So again, thanks a lot for being a part of it. Thanks for the download. Go and rate and review this wherever you downloaded it. Subscribe to this podcast. You don't miss the future interviews that we have. And most importantly, take whatever you're hearing here, what you're reading, what you're doing and inform your leadership on how you can lead yourself, how you can lead others with more and more excellence, each and every day. Thanks a lot. Have a great week.