Achieved vs. Received Identity with Graham Daniels, Director of Cambridge United and Christians in Sport

Phil: Welcome back to How Soccer Explains Leadership. Thanks again for being a part of the conversation. I'm Phil Darke, your host, and I have with me my brother Paul Jobson. Paul, how you doing today?

[00:00:12] Paul: Doing great, Phil. Glad to be, uh, back on the podcast, man. Excited about, our conversation today. But, things are a little bit rainy here in Waco, but, all is good.

I think we're hitting into the summer here pretty soon. But, uh, sports are in full action here in the Jobson house. Everything from our wrestling to our soccer to our American football, to man who I don't even know sometimes what's going on. Mud, front yard, mud, football and soccer. It's all good,

[00:00:37] Phil: man. Well, you got all boys, so, you know, it's just boy fun in the jobson house, you know, so you guys, like you say, you got mud and then you get outta your pool.

So, you know, hopefully that filter's working well with that mud football. So, you know, it is the be

[00:00:50] Paul: it is the best bath we have is that swimming pool in the

[00:00:52] Phil: backyard. Yep. So, yep, that was very wise, very wise with four boys to, to build that pool. So, absolutely. [00:01:00] We are actually getting a thing called Spring a little bit here in California.

We haven't seen that for a while. You've never heard of it, and, and it's pretty, it's pretty amazing. It's, I think for a week and a half we're gonna get about 70, 80 year old or year old. You're. Degree, I think is what we call that, right? degree weather. And, you know, and so it's, it's, it's actually really nice, but, you know, 80 degrees feels really, really hot because it's been cold.

But you know that, that, that's, uh, I'm also, if you're watching on video today, you might be going like, what the heck is going on with Phil? Well, I, you know, I just did this, update on my computer and the iPhone can now be a camera. So this production value has gone up just through the roof on how soccer explains leadership, folks.

So if you're watching on YouTube, you're probably blown away right now. I have no doubt. But what will really blow you away? is this interview we have today, you know, I'm, I'm excited. I know Paul, you just met Graham. Yeah. before we started recording. And, uh, I'm, I've been excited to do this for a [00:02:00] long time, since the, the first conversation we had a couple years ago.

and just hearing so much and doing research. I'm just more and more, impressed and, and excited to just have this conversation because of, of the thought that has gone in to a lot of that. Graham has written a lot that he's done being part of the, the global sports movement. Just, uh, seeing what God's done through the, this man is, has been really, really exciting.

So, with us today is, Graham Daniels. He is the director of Christians in Sport as well as, Cambridge United. And, a lot more than that we'll get into today. But Graham, how are you doing?  

[00:02:36] Graham: Well, I was fascinated when you were talking about pretend Spring and Waco, Texas. You really don't wanna know what it's like here in England at the moment.

80 degrees. We kill for 80 degrees. Yeah, I'm in, I'm in great shape. Thank you. Other than we're coming to the end of our, uh, soccer season here, about a week away, uh, below the [00:03:00] Premier League. That is. They have another couple of weeks to go. Yeah. so, uh, I may well be attached to a professional football club, but having been promoted two years ago, uh, we are fighting relegation and we have to win our last three games.

So I've got that in the back of my mind somewhere as we're talking. Maybe I'll learn something about leadership myself today and, and see if we can get outta trouble.

[00:03:21] Phil: I hope, I hope that those, wins, do happen and you can stay, avoid that relegation. it is funny, every time I, I hear relegation, I, I can't help but think of Ted Lasso and he always talks about regulation and re what is this relegation thing?

And, it's, you know, funny, but yeah, that's, that's gotta be very, very stressful. I can't even imagine in that, that position.

[00:03:43] Graham: Oh, Lasso is brilliant. I, I think it's the best television program we've seen in the UK for years and years. And we, we show it, we show it to our staff because it obviously, the values, his values, his approaches, his way of being, uh, is just brilliant. [00:04:00]

I know it's funny, but he is brilliant. It's been a breath of fresh air, actually. Yeah. Ted Lasso.

[00:04:06] Phil: It has, you know, we actually, if that go back to, uh, if you're listening to this and you haven't heard We did, Paul and I did like a five episode series on the how Ted Lasso Explains Leadership, you know, using Season One.

Did a couple episodes at a time. But yeah, those, those leadership lessons, particularly in season one, I think they've been, you know, had more social statements throughout season two and now season three, it's very much gone to social statements more than the leadership lessons that I thought Season One just hit outta the park.

It was, it was, it was very, very good. so Graham, you know, I, I just, a lot of people probably don't know who you are, don't know your story, that are listening to this, but, so can you just share that, you know, briefly share just how you develop your passion for, for football, for coaching, for ministry, and a big part of your life is ministry, and leadership and, and, and what are you doing today?

[00:04:57] Graham: Well, I think probably the best contextualization is, [00:05:00] uh, I, I was a Welsh kid, growing up in the United Kingdom. Rugby was really the main game. Soccer wasn't the big game at school. It was on its way to being a secular culture. It was the 1970s when I was a kid at school, really, heading towards middle school and high school.

So I didn't really know anything about Christianity, but I was a sports smart kid. So you were allowed to play soccer when you got to about 15 or 16 years of age at school with the older boys. That was the line when you were allowed to play the bad sport. I turned out to be better at soccer than, uh, rugby.

So I was on my way really. I, I was at Cardiff City, which was a local, second tier as it's called here, Championship team. So I, I signed for Cardiff, which is, uh, 60 miles probably from my growing up, uh, home as a 16 year old. And I, I was with that club through three university as well. That was unusual in those days.

And that's another [00:06:00] conversation. You generally left, left school to go to play soccer, but I was able to carry on, uh, and I was at University of Cardiff, played there through the 21, then transferred after graduation to Cambridge, which was in the same league at the time. So moved 300 miles east across the UK.

And since then I've actually 40 years now have lived in Cambridge. Um, my children have grown up here. My wife came Welsh girl and we got married and my soccer career and then coaching in my thirties and forties and director of football club flowed from that. I came to faith as a 22 year old, just having left Wales, finding myself on my own in a new city initially, and playing first team football, in the championship.

And I'll stop just there, but the bottom line was, it was a dream I'd had since I was a little boy that I could do this. [00:07:00] And like so many people who come to Christian faith a little bit later, um, in, in certain levels of sport, I suppose much higher than mine, but it was a dream come true. And of course it was like hot sand slipping through your fingers.

It wasn't satisfying enough once you were the inner circle. The inner circle did not prove to be any greater than the circle one was in before. So I came to faith in my twenties and the two have amalgamated, thank God for 40 years since then. Yeah.

[00:07:29] Phil: Can you just go a little bit more into, you know, that. just how you came to faith and really that idea of, and then how that not just came to faith, but then see this connection with, with, you know, the sport and the emptiness and all that, and then how you started Christians in Sport and how that, that came to be.

[00:07:49] Graham: Oh, it was a great guy. When, when people talk about sharing your faith in sport or ask me a question about it, I'll say, well, uh, here's the worst evangelist in the [00:08:00] history of sports ministry, and he led me to Christ. Uh, I was a 15 year old boy.

I was picked, I won't even begin explaining cricket, right? But I was picked from my school cricket team, and it was a 50 mile journey to the game. I was, I was taken out of my class at five to midday, five minutes to midday, and a summer's day in May. 800, 600 boys at school, and I couldn't believe they'd come to get me because I was 15.

The king of school was 18 years of age. Best rugby player, best cricketer. Great guy. You know when you're 15 and there's an 18 year old guy there and he's almost got a beard. He's your hero, isn't he? He'd never talk to me anyway. He's knocking at my door, at my class door, uh, doing physics, I think saying, can Graham Daniels come with us please.

He's playing cricket for the school team today, so I think, what a player I am. Oh my word. At five past 12, we jump on the bus, we go to the game. He sits by me because I don't know anyone. 11 players play and a teacher's driving very kindly sits next to me on the small bus and over this [00:09:00] 50 mile journey, I'm hinting for him to tell me what a great player I am.

And after I've tried two or three times, he says, oh, you're trying to work out why we picked you, right? I said, not really. No. No. And he says, oh, sorry. He said, I should have explained. He said, uh, what time did I come to your classroom? Five to 12. What time did the bus leave for the game? Five past 12.

How many boys at school? 600. Does anyone live closer to school than you? No, that's why you're on the bus. We had to go quickly. Somebody was sick. So I'm in the, uh, you can look this. Hey, you boys can look this up sometime. I'm not gonna explain it. There's 11 players. I batted 11, which means I'm the worst batsman.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and I, and I feel it at the furthest point from the ball at all times during the game, which means I was the worst fielder. On the way home. It's a Monday. He says to me, stick with this story because it is the worst evangelism ever. And it, I got saved by it. So anyone who ever is frightened of saying anything about Jesus, take note of this story [00:10:00] on the way home.

It's a 50 mile journey where five miles out of Cardiff, which is the city we were playing in, and um, he says to me, what did I, it was Monday. What did I do at the weekend? I said, well, I played cricket Saturday. I did nothing Sunday because it's a dead day in the seventies. If he didn't go to church, he did nothing.

It was nothing on. I say to him, being polite. What did you do Sunday? Uh, the weekend. He said, I play cricket Saturday. I went to church on Sunday. I looked at him. I couldn't believe it. He was the king of school. He was the king of school. He was the coolest boy in school. I said, what did you go to church for?

Does your par, do your parents make you go to church? King of school? He looked at me and he said, uh, and he blushed colored up. He said, well, I, I, I follow Jesus. And I said to myself, 45 miles to go. I'm trapped by this crazy guy. Within six years later, I'm playing against my boyhood hero. You, [00:11:00] your listeners won't know him.

He was a man called Kevin Keegan. He was an England captain. He managed the England soccer team. He was a great player. He was my boyhood hero. He was in his last season as a pro at Newcastle, who weren't in the Premier League. They were promoted that year. We were bottom of the championship. We played at Newcastle.

I was playing against Keegan. It was a full house, 40,000. It was the best thing had ever happened to me in my life. I scored as well. We lost two, one. Um, we lost a lot. We lost two-One. I scored tapping at the far post, and that's when it was like hot sand through my fingers. I came back to Cambridge with the players.

We went out that night to a club. I woke up on Sunday morning and I said to myself, six years after meeting that guy. That I've dreamt of this every single day of my life, and now I've got it. It didn't mean anything. And all I could think of, and I hadn't seen him for three years was Guion Jenkins.

Guion Jenkins, nicest guy I ever met. Competitive, [00:12:00] hungry, ambitious. Used to write to me before there were emails. Send me letters in the post, like big letters, books about Jesus, books about Christianity. So to draw that in, I was a philosophy undergrad. I did that because there were four lectures a week and two tutorials.

So I could train every day. Cuz it's not like American collegiate system where you're freed up to train. I could go to my professional club every day cuz there was so few lectures. So I was an undergrad philosopher, just graduated trying to work out if there was a God or not remembering. We Guion Jenkins getting a chance to be a pro footballer properly and trying to weigh it all up.

And for six months on my own, I just read my Bible, read books, tried to work it out. And then one Tuesday night, no game midweek, just a game Saturday. I was in my room on my own and I read one Corinthians 15 where Paul says, if Christ didn't rise from the dead, your faith is futile and you're still in [00:13:00] your sins.

And I read it and I thought, oh my gosh, it's an empirical claim. If Christ didn't rise from the dead, Christians are fools. Ipso facto if he did rise from the dead, it's true. Mm-hmm. And I dug for the resurrection and I dug for the resurrection. And a few months later, I went to work one day and the boy said, you weren't out last night.

Where were you? They were out playing pool or something, or snooker. And I thought, oh, flip. I'd become a Christian the night before. I asked Jesus into my life. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know anyone. And the chap said, where were you? And I said, um, oh, I didn't wanna come out last night. Well, what was wrong?

What were you doing? You're on your own all night. I said, um, and I, the only way I'd ever heard anyone evangelize before was what my friend said to me with blushing face six years later. And I said, no, I decided to follow Jesus last night. And somebody shouted for the physiotherapist and said, Pete, Pete, get yourself in here quick.

The pressure's got to Graham. His head's cracked. [00:14:00] He's gone. He's gone. That was my tipping point. Yeah, that was it. So that's a long story. Sorry boys. But that's, so that's a great story. That's awesome. That's a great story. Oh, well, listen, there's an addendum. When I did become a Christian, I went home that summer there was a soccer season.

I lived, as I say, about 300 miles away. Mum and dad. I went home in the summer. I met Guion Jenkins' dad. Here's what Guion Jenkins' dad told me. His dad was a pastor. He said, very nice to meet you. He said, uh, do you remember when he first heard from Guion about Jesus? I said, I certainly do, and I remembered this story I've just told you.

And he said, well, let me tell you Guion’s side. He came in that night after the game, and I said to him, how did the game go today, son? And uh, he said, uh, good thanks, dad. And he said, well, your face doesn't tell me it was good. Did you score any runs? He said, well, 90, which is huge. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, did you take any wickets?

Five, which is magnificent. Uh, so it's like top draw performance [00:15:00] as expected. And he said, well, you don't look very happy. What's the matter with you? He said, well, you know, yesterday at church we had a talk about actually sharing our faith with any, with people. He said, I'm 18. I've never told anyone I'm a Christian, ever.

I've never talked to somebody who's not a Christian about Jesus. So I decided yesterday at church that I was gonna say something to somebody this week. And then we stopped to get this boy from his class at five to 12 cuz we, somebody was sick and we were shot. And I took him at the bus, he said, and I told him on the way back that I was a Christian.

And he asked me, why are you a Christian? Dad, do you know what I told him? I told him, because I followed Jesus and I blushed. He said, dad, I'm never doing it again. I'm never doing that again. What a horrible moment. And his dad told me that six years later. That's amazing. So you cannot be worse than Guion Jenkins was.

And I never forgot him and I never [00:16:00] got him out of my head. Ever. And I found out later from his wife, he had then married. He used to pray for me every day until I was 18. Uhhuh and then every Saturday, cuz he gave up a bit on me for four years until I was converted. So thanks be to God, when we talk about sports ministry and all the ministry we do, it doesn't get much more normal, does it, than a really great guy in my case, who is a great athlete and a good, good, honest, decent fella.

Faithful, committed, looks out for you, looks after you, does the real deal. So that six or seven years later you think, where do I turn to? It has to be Jesus Christ. So thank you, Guion. Thank you Guion Jenkins. That's the background. I love it.

[00:16:46] Paul: That's, that's awesome. I love, I love that story and I hope, and I'm sure you tell it a lot, I hope you tell it a lot.

Uh, I do. I think there's so many people that can benefit from hearing that story and just the, the planting of seeds that as coaches and, and athletes or just people in [00:17:00] general, just planting seeds and just, it, it's up to God to do the rest. Right. So that's a, that's a, that's just an amazing, you just hear so many of these magical stories, right, of how, and that's what scares so many of us from, from speaking about our faith.

But, uh, that's, that's amazing. Uh, I love that. So, uh, Graham, as you, as you, you know, gave us that as awesome faith story and, and all of that, what at this point, like what is, what is your why? What is your life purpose? What did, and how are you, how are you living that out?

[00:17:28] Graham: Oh, right now, I think from that first, pretty much that first, so I'm just past 60 and, and there, there was a pivotal moment, which is.

Which has remained my life story really in terms of calling in sport. Anyway, uh, I'd been converted about six months. It was the start of a new soccer season here in the UK and one day I was a training and a guy came, they said at reception there's a guy, there's a guy wants to see you after training. [00:18:00] Um, and I went to see this guy and he said, how'd you do?

Um, I'd been baptized in a local church in Cambridge and there'd been in a sort of local newspaper. There'd been a feature on it. And so somebody had told this guy who had formed an organization called Christians in Sport. It was 1984 and it had begun in 1980. So this guy had come to see me and he said to me, did I know there were other Christians playing soccer, professional soccer in the UK. 92 professional clubs.

So there's the Premier League, obviously, and then there's three more divisions and national divisions. So 92 clubs in all. And I said to him, well, I don't really think there are because for the last six months, every time I play against somebody, I ask people I've known in the past, anybody here who's a Christian.

And then I adapted quite quickly to saying, anyone here go to church? Because people didn't know what I was talking about really? And he said to me, no, there really are. And I thought, well, it's your organization. You've been running it for four years. You obviously know more than me. So gimme [00:19:00] hope. Gimme hope.

Cuz I thought it was the only Christian in Britain who played football. I'll jump between football and soccer. As you can see, I can't stop myself. That's alright. You

[00:19:07] Phil: can say, say far. Just say football cuz we know what you're talking

[00:19:10] Graham: about. I will. Thank you. Um, and I said, so how many are there? Then thinking, well, at least there's hope.

You're, you know, maybe I've got 20 or 30 or something to work with. I don't know. And he said four. I said four. I said, what kind of organization you running? You've been going four years. What earth do you do every day? And he says, four. I said, well, who are the four? And he named three. I said, well, who's the fourth?

He said, you. So that was it. So I remember that moment thinking, oh my goodness, if Guion Jenkins hadn't sat by me on the bus and said, is stupid effort at evangelism and blushing, I wouldn't be a Christian humanly. Well, who's gonna tell all these people? And that was it. That, that's my, that's my life. [00:20:00] That's my story.

That's it. Today. I, it's, that's my story today. How can I, I have no doubt whatsoever that ridiculously kindly, when God decided that I had something to do in this world and he in my mother's womb, there I was, my vocation was going to be full on sport. Conversion to Christ and the amalgam of both as my station or calling vocation.

So all I've tried to do Paul, is find various ways with age and stage to stay inside the game, to stay inside, uh, the professional game as much as I've been able to, and represent Christ in there. Uh, so that, that is my why reaching the world of sport for Christ. That's my why. Love it.

[00:20:51] Phil: That is, uh, a great why.

Absolutely love that. Uh, God has put that on your heart. And I mean, what a, what a great. purpose, what [00:21:00] a huge need, right? Um, and it, and it's led you presumably that why led you to get your PhD cuz that's a lot of work to get a PhD. your, your thesis, and I, and I just, you know, pulled this up.

I don't know exactly remember the exact title of thesis, but the, there was an article, Christian Identity in Professional Footballers that may have been, uh, the title of your thesis as well. But, you said in that, Article, a clear understanding of one's per personal value before God through faith in Christ is pivotal to providing the liberation necessary to deal with the performance requirements of a vocation in elite sport.

Can we just, uh, have a little conversation about identity, what you mean by that, first of all? Cause I mean, some listeners may be going, what are you even talking about? But this idea of Christian identity and why do you believe that that is the, a necessity, to deal with the performance requirements of vocation in an elite sport?

[00:21:59] Graham: Yeah. [00:22:00] Yeah. Thank you. Gosh. But didn't sound like me. I must have got somebody else to write that sentence. I'm sure I did. Um, uh, I, I, I think I would, forgive me for putting it like this, but I, I think it works for me. Um, so I hope it helps if, if you're the kid who, when you were elementary school and it was a school race day, You are the kid who won.

They knew you'd win. Everybody knows you'd win. It was any kind of sports tournament in your class or your neighborhood, and you were involved. You'd be a winner soon. Uh, your junior high, then you're in high school and you are the kid who wins. You are the sporty kid. When we talk about identity is a lot of academic conversation around it, of course.

Um, but effectively I think what we're talking about here is when you don't even know the water you're swimming in or the air that you're breathing. If you're a really, really good sporty kid, You're a cultural achiever. You earn kudos. [00:23:00] I mean, some people don't like sport, of course, but it's such a dominant cultural norm, uh, that you are an achiever.

Um, so my differentiation, in my academic work, I suppose I, I, I feel I've tried to simplify it by calling it a received identity or an achieved identity. I. Hmm. You are a cultural achiever and you must achieve your worth or value. Now, inevitably, everybody knows, as I talked about getting into the inner circle earlier about getting inside, uh, the first team of a professional club in the championship.

We all know when you play sport there, there has to come a point somewhere. Sometime when you meet your match. I mean, one or two people in history don't do it, but most of us will meet our match and then it's deselection, not making the cut, not getting the scholarship. It means getting injured. [00:24:00] Uh, it means not getting a new contract at some point, somewhere that happens and all the promises of fulfillment of the achieved identity dissipate.

So that's what I'm talking about here, that an achieved identity or a performance identity, I, I'd use the, uh, synonyms received and achieved an achieved identity where you define yourself by your achievements must let you down. So that's all I'm really talking about. but we mustn't be superficial about this because the sporty kid, as I try to illustrate, they're such a tender age when they're the coolest kid in class, that your muscle memory is so dominated by your achievement capacity that when it diminishes, boy you're in trouble.

You know, you really are in trouble. So let, let me just start with that. I think that's what I'm talking about here and it's what is the gospel? What is the gospel balm for that [00:25:00] specifically within the nuances of the strength of that identity formation, uh, in society of the, of the Christian athlete or of the athlete rather.

[00:25:10] Phil: Yeah. You know, and I think I saw this in a, a triangle, and I don't know who created this image, but I, I imagine it came out of this con, you know, a similar conversation. Yeah. But this idea of the triangle with the identity being at the top. Yeah. Talents and relationship on the bottom corners. Yeah. And so much of what we do in, in society, really as you say that, that form, you know, that, uh, was it the, uh, earned identity or what do you call that the, uh, achieved an identity

[00:25:39] Graham: achieved.

Identity achieved, achieved identity. .

[00:25:44] Phil: So this idea that your talent and your relationships create your identity and it goes upward arrows versus the idea of the received identity of the identity being what you are and who you, who you are, and [00:26:00] whose you are, right? Going down to the talent and relationships, and it outflows into the talent and relationships and flows out of that identity.

Is that really what you're talking about there?

[00:26:12] Graham: Yes. So, thanks for helping visualize that, that that helped me as you, as you described it. So, uh, uh, let's get really, really practical. Now, if you're talking to a or, I'll try and be practical, rather, if you're talking to somebody who's a believer in Jesus, l let's do football, which I know best.

Um, I, I, I'll say to a, a footballer, look, it's 10 minutes to go. You're three nil down. You're having an absolutely terrible game. There's 35, 50,000, 60,000 people watching you, you know, you've had a terrible game. At that point, it doesn't matter really how strong you are, mentally tough. You are, you, you hate it, and you're scared.

I mean, you put the front on you galvanize yourself. You're resilient, but you are scared. You're scared of the manager. You're [00:27:00] scared of people's opinions, scared of the crowd. You're scared. So I, I'll say to them, I'll do this sometimes at, uh, on a dining table or in a lounge somewhere, you, you know, you get the pepper and salt, salt and pepper pots, and you just did it actually, Phil.

So I'll say to them, look, here's me, that's you. That's you. That's the individual. So often than when we look up and we're scared, it's because we're interacting with people playing sport. And in the sporting interaction that we're going on, it's going really badly. And so we feel a failure and we're scared.

I say, now, listen, you're a Christian. Let's move that pepper pot outta the way. Let's move it. Let's get it outta the way. Who can you see above the pepper pot? What's the next pot? What's the salt pot? Who's that? So is Christ. Now come with me on this. I'll say to them, you're scared to death of the [00:28:00] crowd, of your teammates, of the manager, of the opposition of the media.

You're scared to death. That's fine. It's normal because you spent your life achieving cultural kudos by your sporting brilliance. So now you are ashamed and embarrassed and humiliated. That's how you feel. Look up. Now your arrows are coming down, Phil. Who loves you? Whether you are injured deselected, you'll never play again.

Whether you win the championship, who loves you? This is the gospel. Your identity is received. It is never achieved with God. You can do nothing to earn it. The arrows never earn it pointing upwards. So it seems simplistic to put it like this, doesn't it? But that ability, the ball goes outta play. There's a 30 minute break, the physio might run on.

You stop there and you look straight up and you say, I am not, I'm not going to judge myself by my achievements or [00:29:00] successes or failures. I've received identity and Jesus put me here on purpose. If we can get that clear in our heads, I, I would then say to players all the time now, now look to your right now, look to your right and left.

What do you see around you? Teammates, opponents the media That's gr Now look to your left or right. Your only security comes from received identity from Christ. Now look around. Now you are safe, not scared. Now you have two more Ss to play with. You can serve, not survive. You can serve now. Your mental ram isn't consumed with your shame and embarrassment and the disaster of it all, and you can serve the people around you and not survive.

You don't need to just survive. That's the difference between having a see a received identity and constantly being burdened by an achieved one. So I, I'm trying to say Phil, I think it makes sense, not just of the [00:30:00] individual's liberation, but this is really important now. We're saved by grace through faith, not by work, so that no one can boast.

It's the gift of God. What for? Look up, let that come at you and then look left and right and say for where God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works with God prepared in advance for us to do. Now you liberate your vocation as an athlete. Now your interactions with other people becomes your school of discipleship.

How do you ne navigate failure, rejection, deselection, winning championship performances? This is now the great school of discipleship where you can serve others in the power of Christ. That's what I think has to be pivotal foundational, the axiomatic basis of any practical sports ministry, uh, that we engage in with, certainly with the elite athlete.

That

[00:30:56] Phil: was, if you didn't catch [00:31:00] all that, folks go back and, uh, rewind whatever. I don't know if you rewind anymore or you just scroll back. Whatever you do. Uh, That was so good. And, uh, Paul, I mean, what do, what do you think of that? Yeah, I'm

[00:31:14] Paul: just listening to that and processing, uh, just how well you put that together.

Um, that yeah, I hope that we clip that and, and use that. I will, I'll definitely be using that in the, in the, the work that we do. I just think you really explained that really well. Um, and even, you know, the athletes that we work with aren't always the elite athletes, but I think, you know, as you described, the sporty kid, I think even young kids, even in sometimes in their own home, find that their identity is through their success on the pitch.

And that's, you know, as we're, as we're instructing young kids, if we can, if we, and that's one thing that we try to do at Warrior Way, is if we can instill what you're talking about in the younger generations and they can grow up with that mentality, they're not having to be introduced to [00:32:00]it. As a 22, 23 year old professional that that's always been their identity.

What a, what a crazy barrier to try to break down on a professional. How do we introduce that into our, our kids, that that is how they see it from the beginning?

[00:32:15] Graham: Yes. I, I, I, I absolutely agree, Paul, and, and part of the reason in the end I ended up doing this kind of research, I suppose, was that I didn't want to stop working.

The Lord has given me great years to do this, and, and I wanted to encourage others, certainly in my own side of the pond to actually do some thinking about this. So the, so the, there's data we can talk about actually, I, in, I interviewed 15 players, top soccer players in the UK who who'd come to Christ between the ages of 18 and 33.

But to interview them, they had to stay in the career. They, they were in it for at least another injury, took one or two or three years after their conversion, but they had to stay in the game. So I wanted to see the impact of, of this kind of [00:33:00] theological framework or lenses. Somebody gave me a picture and, and I think this'll help it.

Well, it helped me enormously at the start of this process of trying to think how you study these things. Somebody said to me, um, pretend you're going to the optician and you put your chin on that little machine they have, which I think is pretty universal. And then they've got the letters on the screen or on the wall in the old days behind you.

And then of course the guy goes, try that one. Is that better or that better? Is that better or that better? And he dropped the lenses in and somebody said to me, right, if you've got evidence of the testimony of 15 Premier League soccer players who came to faith, help the reader understand what lenses they need to make sense of the facts that you've found. What lenses can you give them at the start of your essay to make sense of that, those facts.

And the best lenses I could find was from a guy called, Dr. Ashley Null, an American guy from Kansas, who's the world [00:34:00] expert on Thomas Kraner and the English Reformation and the doctrines of Grace. He's an absolute genius. He's a five-time Olympic chap chaplain. He's a genius. And he's, he is the cleverest man you've ever met.

And I, I basically translated Ashley Nu for somebody like me and called it and received and achieved identity. But it's from the reformation, you know, it's, it's the gospel of, it's the doctrines of grace. Um, but, but the spilling over. So Paul, I, I agree. It's, this isn't just the elite players of course, but I, the, the interviews I didn't were the leak.

Right? Yeah. But watch, watch the data then, because I can do it succinctly, because it's absolutely brilliant what you'd hope for. And these are the letters in the wall. The stories of the players with the lenses of an identity where the world tells you, you will achieve everything, you'll get rich in my data.

You know, if you make it, you'll get [00:35:00] whatever car you want, whatever house you want, whatever relationships you want, you will be fulfilled and your life will feel secure. Well, what's the first piece of data you get when you interview people or elite players? What you find out is when they're converted men, as soon as they hit the wall, it wasn't long before they weren't fulfilled by being a top top player.

It wasn't long before they were insecure for their place cuz there's better young kids coming through and they're in general in bad form. And of course what you find is. Let's do that again. When they stop, when they're having a bad time and they go look up and they go, who made me? Who loves me? Who gave everything for me?

Who would never, ever, ever, ever leave me in the lurch, Jesus won't. Once that constant refrain of an of a received identity comes, you ask them, so what did you do when you were having injuries or deselection? Or they said, well, I'd worked out that my fulfillment was brilliant in sport. I love sport. I love the game.

God gave me the [00:36:00] gifts, but I could never get the fulfillment that I got from Jesus being my best mate, my savior and friend. Oh, I was secure sometimes when I was playing well, but when I was insecure cuz of bad form injury, even at my lowest E I knew I had somebody who had desire on me at 3:00 AM in the morning when I couldn't sleep.

So the first thing I found out was there was a fulfillment in Christ that you could never get from elite sport. And so the achievement could never give you this. Not in the end. And that flowed over. This is obvious, but wait, when you see the facts on it, it's amazing when women or men have that kind of existential security and fulfillment in Christ, doesn't mean they don't cry when the sport goes wrong doesn't mean they're not thrilled when the sport goes well.

But it does mean this, that people look at them and find an authentic person because once you're inside the locker room at your high school team, or your college team, or your pro [00:37:00] team, no one in that room's impressed by the fact that you're a good athlete cuz they're all good athletes. Mm-hmm So they all look at you just like a human being.

And when they see Jesus making you authentic and you think, of course you're the biggest loser ever, cuz we all think we're the worst Christian ever in the locker room. But we all know really, that when Jesus gets a grip on us, people look at us and they go, why did you do that? Why didn't you do that? And that authenticity, that faith and fulfillment leads to au faith and authenticity.

And finally, invariably it's a witness thing because people see you and they say, I like the way you live. Uh, I like the way you didn't do that. Oh, they know your weaknesses. Of course they do cuz you're in the same locker room. But that movement that once you know your identity is received, and ultimately it's not an achievement, but that [00:38:00] God has put you in that locker room because he made you a really good player at that level.

And if you're in that locker room, he's the one who gives you security and fulfillment in your sports. Win or lose. That will lead to authenticity and it will mean people will see something of Christ in you and will ask about it. And there's nothing new in what I've just said here that all of us know.

But boy, oh, boy, to hear stories of Premier League soccer players who told me that story Wowzers. Wowzers. Brilliant stories of witness and testimony. That's, yeah.

[00:38:38] Paul: You, you, you, uh, one of the topics we were gonna talk about was, you know, ministry and sports, you know, and how we use that to make disciples, and I think you just hit it on the head.

It's just about, you know, finding that, being that, and letting others see that. And is that, would you say ultimately ministry and sport and making [00:39:00] disciples, would you, was that how you would kind of define, define

[00:39:03] Graham: that out? Yeah. I, I, I, I, I would, I, I think, look again to, to make it popular, which is the way I, I've always done this.

I, I call it pray, play, say we teach Colossians 4:2-6. pray you, pray to God being watchful and thankful. Well, talking to God is about your experience of God. It's about your relationship with God. It's about knowing that he loves you, that he's for you, that he's with you. That's what we, that's what prayer is before we intercede for anything.

It's a personal relationship with your creator and savior. Well, if, if that's the heart of Colossians 4:2 and prayer, then the next line that's worth knowing is verse five of Colossians four. Uh, be, be wise in the way you act towards outsiders, make the most of every opportunity. Well, this is clearly about authenticity.

If there's an internal fulfillment, despite that brokenness and our moodiness and our fracture, there's a profound, [00:40:00] somewhere God-given received reality of Christ in me, then wise towards outsiders is about the way we play on the field, off the field, the locker room, outside the locker room. And it's not a surprise.

In verse six, as Paul summarizes mission to the, Colossian church, uh, he then goes on to finish it by saying, let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Well look, your conversation, your walk, your language, your talk, you don't think it's salty cuz you fail so often.

We all do, we feel rubbish most of the time. But people see somebody who's a praying person who plays in a, in a different way, on and off the field and you are bound to end up saying something about Christ cuz people want to know this is mission. But Paul is it for me, this is the best thing, uh, because I'm old now and people very kindly have said to me sometimes, gosh, very, you're very good to keep trying to [00:41:00] stay in sport, to evangelize people.

I get that comment sometimes, you know, in a church context, you're very good to be witnessing to people in sport for all these years and to have a vision for it. And I say, well, no, you got that the wrong way round. I don't stay in sport to do mission. I, I was born to play. I, I was born to play as was everybody else in my locker room, if they're Christian or not.

Cuz the same God made all of us. The same god gave us our talents and our relationships. The same god put us there. And in the reformation, Martin Luther is brilliant on this. He's brilliant on this. When he left the monastery and he realized you don't have to go to the monastery to meet God. And when he said, th there's a priesthood of all believers and everybody, everybody is made by God with a gift.

He actually said that in, in Matthew five, where the Lord Jesus says the sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Luther used that text and he used the example of a [00:42:00] German baker. He was a German, Luther. And he said the German baker, if he's not a Christian, he needs to do something really well to put food on the table.

He needs to treat his suppliers well and his customers well, or he won't feed his family. He said, God uses our talents and our relationships and our community to reduce evil in the world. He makes the sunshine in the rainfall and the, and the just an. Until judgment day, god will, in his kindness, use the gifts that every human being has been given, which Luther called their station standing.

This is common grace. Everybody in my changing room can make a difference. My locker room can make a difference in society. They can be a cultural good, they can make the crowd happy. This is a beautiful thing that God did to restrain bad in the world. And then, and then Luther says, everyone, every human being has the dignity of a station.

Everybody, everybody don't have to be born again to have the dignity of a God-given [00:43:00]station by common grace to make the world a decent place. He says, but when you meet Christ, you have a new word for it. Now it's your vocation, not station. And you know, you're just like any other baker. You're just like any ath other athlete.

But now you know who gave you the talent. Now you know who it's for. And now you know who loves you when it'll be over and you won't be that one anymore. So the reformation on this is electric because it stops you thinking you're somehow better than your teammate cuz you're born again. Yeah. He has the dignity of a human station.

You've just had your eyes open, but you're both the same guy in what you do. Right. And I think it stops it being them and us in a way. Are you with me? It stops it being so aggressively divisive without compromising that you have to be born again. There's a new birth, Luther is a genius on this. And liberates our thought, you know, [00:44:00] for a received and achieved identity.

[00:44:02] Phil: Yeah. You know, and, and that, that reminds me going back to what you said about it frees you to serve not just survive. Yes. Right. That, that is when you have that boom, I mean, cuz I just, as you're talking, I'm thinking about all these people who have quote unquote made it in the world. And Jim Carey, I think of his quote where he says, I wouldn't wish fame upon anyone.

Because he doesn't have that freedom to serve rather survive. And I've, I've heard, I don't know this is true, but I've heard he's come to the Lord and now has a completely different outlook on life, which makes sense, right? Because we know that, right? It's that freedom. That freedom. And so I, I absolutely, absolutely love that.

[00:44:45] Graham: Yeah. Well, well look, I, I, Paul, I'm gonna, because I've talked a lot there. I, I really do think you can summarize it, use triangles. Uh, Phil, I think you can almost do like an L shape, [00:45:00] you know, like a capital L. Mm-hmm. You've just got, uh, you lever it out, you've gotta sort of, capital I and you, you've gotta say No, I'm, it's me at the bottom.

It's Jesus at the top. But in the middle I've got this whole crowd of people who I've gotta achieve things for, cuz it's all I've ever known. And actually I've gotta push that down and make a capital l I've gotta put it down there. That's who I am. That's who I am. This has been given to me. My talent was given to me.

My, my salvation and my talent was given to me. It's all a gift. Now, as you say, as you rightly say, I'm safe now. I'm not. I don't have to be scared By faith, I'm safe. Now I can really serve because I'm not consumed with my own safety. I, I don't have to be scared now. I can serve, not survive. That momentum of God changing the athlete where all the other athletes have station or standing from God in common grace to make the world their village, the city a better place.

But you, the Christian, you are aware that the [00:46:00] servant hearted, fully committed, working hard Christian player with their fulfillment, their authenticity, and their natural witness is their life's calling. It's their life's calling. Safe. Safe to serve, not scared and surviving. That's how I capture it right then.

Yeah.

[00:46:23] Paul: That's, that's awesome. And folks, if you, if you're not watching the YouTube video, go back and watch the YouTube video and just see, you can hear the passion in, in Graham's voice. But I'd love for you to see, uh, his passion as he, as he talks through this tell. He is, he's lived it and, and loved it. And, uh, I just gained a lot of wisdom from, from hearing from you and, and watching you, uh, navigate.

This is an awesome, Graham. Let's, let's talk a little bit, I know you don't wanna talk about you, but we're gonna talk about you for a minute at least. Uh, you, you've talked, you've given some examples of some things that happened earlier in your career. You talked about your conversion story. Are there any other, let's say,[00:47:00] uh, call 'em defining moments in your career that have, you know, Maybe shaped how you, how you lead in, in the, in the things that you're doing on a day-to-day basis.

[00:47:11] Graham: Oh, you, you're very kind to thoughtful to ask that Paul. Um, well, in the light of where the conversation's gone, and there probably two, two in terms of significant leadership. Then, um, at the age of 38, I'd been, I'd been pretty much working from my late twenties through my thirties. Uh, I was, I was an okay player, and every player, you know what I mean by this?

You, you know, your levels by your mid twenties at the latest. You, you know, and you come up against somebody who's so much better than you, and it happens again and then again, so, you know, you're, you're pinnacle and you, you can't go above it. Um, I wasn't really very good. I was an average player. Um, you know, not, not the top, not at the top.

Could never have played at the very top. So I thought I could be a [00:48:00] better coach than a player. Um, And I was determined I was gonna be a coach and I was gonna get a job. And then once I got my first job in the big leagues, not the minor leagues, uh, which is below the top four years, there are minor leagues.

And I worked away at that as a player and a player coach. And at the age of about 36, I was offered a job in the bigger leagues as the number two to a head coach. I'd worked for that for the best part of 10 years, I think, probably not far off doing my qualifications and getting the right jobs to take the next step.

And it was a really ridiculous moment. It was the end of the season and I was offered the job. I wasn't expecting it. I had a cup of tea with a guy and I knew within five seconds of him offering it to me, I knew I couldn't take it. And I couldn't believe it. I mean, I kept a nice face on and, and said, that's really great offer.

Thank you very much. Let me go home and talk to my wife and have a think about it. I knew straight away I couldn't do it. And that was the first [00:49:00] time in my life, uh, age 38 ish, ish, somewhere like that. Um, you know what? I couldn't, I knew I could, I wouldn't, if I couldn't get up in the morning and go to my study and prep the talks I was giving for other people about Christ and Sport, I, I, I, I had to be able to get up some days and do that.

I cou I couldn't go to the soccer club all the time. I cou I couldn't do it cuz I'd done it three or four nights a week till then and, and worked for Christians in sport, uh, worked in soccer and Christians in sport, a bit of both. And it was quite a shock because I thought, you know, that's it. I'll go to the, one of the top clubs in English soccer.

I'll be the one of the top managers I'll do. Of course, it was a dream. But that was it. I knew at that point the rest of my life, I knew I would never, ever do it as a full-time job. I would always do gospel ministry as a job. I'd be a pastor, teacher, evangelist type. So that was the [00:50:00] first tipping point. And I, and then that's what I've done for the rest of my life.

And then at 50, I'm 61, at 50 years of age. Uh, so I carried on coaching sort of semi-pro teams, three nights a week playing at the weekend, uh, traveling around the country to see players for Christians in sport and happily around the world and meeting lots of good friends over the years, and sharing how this works and listening to others and talking.

And then, um, a wonderful thing at 50, I never thought I'd be inside the, the locker room properly of a, of a full-time pro team again. And I was offered the role of a, a director of the team I played for, uh, in Cambridge. Uh, and then for a, for a period of that, we got some American owners and I was the director of football, uh, for the club.

And that's 11 years ago. I've been there, uh, I've been there 11 years now, and I'm right at the heart of professional soccer [00:51:00] again. So every Saturday for the last 10 years, I'm in and out of clubs all over the UK and back right inside it all. But it's not my, to put it crudely, it's not my paid employment.

My paid employment is jumping in my car, jumping on a train, jumping on a plane, and, and helping athletes work out what an achieved and received identity looks like. So I, I, Paul, I'm absolutely thrilled. I mean, I was 50 years of age and I've just gone back right inside the whole thing of the pro game and the PhD has meant, so this is a bit indulgent, but the PhD, which I did in my fifties, has meant the most unexpected things.

Being able to speak because I'm the director of a professional football club. Um, and because of the PhD and because of the current sort of zeitgeist about mental health and wellbeing and the, you know, important conversations going on in [00:52:00] the elite sport, cuz the PhD is about the wellbeing of athletes in the formation of their identity.

I'm often asked now to speak at conferences in professional sport in the uk. They know my, my research, they, I think they think, I think they know that I, I research Christians. But they'll have me because they were all top players. And of course, it's the way you conduct it then. So now circle around, you know, you can talk about fulfillment, achieved identities.

You can talk about authenticity being the real you at work, not wearing a false mask. You, so you're engaged with a secular culture, but you, I wouldn't be able to do it had the PhD not come along because being a Director of Cambridge wouldn't have been enough to get me in those rooms to talk with the Premier League people.

Mm-hmm. But then doing the PhD without being inside a professional club wouldn't have, you know, the two were needed. So I just think the Lord's been crazy kind to me that I've been able to [00:53:00]combine these again in a, in a way. So thank you for asking. They would be the tipping points, since conversion probably.

Yeah. Thank you.

[00:53:10] Phil: That's awesome. That's a, and I'm glad you hit on that mental health, conversation cuz we've, we've had several people come on. Um, actually the last episode before, this, that we did an interview was a mental health, conversation. And I think that what you're talking about, I mean, you, you said it, I mean, or somebody said it for you in that quote that I read earlier, this idea of without that Christian identity, if we're performing for someone that isn't unconditionally loving us there, it will fail us.

And there will be a breakdown of some kind. Yes.

[00:53:44] Graham: Uh, a agreed. Well, I, I, I think, you know, you, you certainly in the West at least, isn't it? It it, you know, the first thousand years were kind of, uh, who, who is Jesus The next millennium was, well, how do you become a Christian? Really crudely? [00:54:00] And now it seems the question of our generation is gonna be, what is it to be human?

What is a human? How do you, what is humanity? What, what am I? Who am I? Where am I in the sort of atheism, certainly of Europe? So this is more certainly the conversation in Europe and that's why I've enjoyed this conversation with you two because much as I've rambled at parts of this, you, we need to have the language to say to people, cultural achievement is great.

If you can be anything, you can also be nothing. And most of us end up feeling we're nothing, uh, because not many of us can be everything. And the moment you are left with only your achievements that define you, or the affirmation of people who will unconditionally tell you that whatever you are, whatever you do, and however you behave, you're fine and I love you and doesn't challenge you. What hope? Any of us? Well, I mean what hope, any of us. I [00:55:00] had this conversation the other day with in a English University where you're allowed to speak as a Christian and do question and answer and it's quite intense debate. And somebody said to me, well, your opinion's different to mine cuz you believe in God and you, therefore you wanna affirm my, it was a matter of sexuality in this case.

You wouldn't affirm my sexuality, would you? He said that, so that's a hate. You must hate me. I hadn't even said anything. I said, well, whoa, hold fire. I said, let me give you an example. It was Belfast, it was Queens University, Belfast. I said, uh, this is a Monday. I flew here Sunday. I told my wife I'll be home Saturday morning.

I said, now what if I went back in three weeks on Saturday morning and didn't tell her? I said, here's what'll happen when I get home in three weeks. I've got a dog. I said, my dog's tail would work and it'll lick my face just like it would if I came back after a week. But my wife won't lick my face and a tail won't mark, uh, because she loves me.

You see, if you want unconditional lo love, get a dog. But [00:56:00] real love. Real love, true love, true love wants the lover to grow as a human being. And so I'm glad my wife loves me because she'd be really crossed with me for not treating her with respect and it would demean my humanity and she should take me on.

So listen, my dear friend, I said, let's not talk, let's not get wrapped up in in the smaller things. First, let's talk about this. Have you gotta achieve all your value in life by your own identity formation, by your own ability, and by the way you present yourself and everybody's gotta affirm you. No worries.

Go and buy the dog. But I can tell you now, there's somebody bigger than you who looks down in you and says, I don't care where you fail, what your failures are, or what your successes are. I'm here and I died for you, and I love you unconditionally, and I love you so much. Not only do I want to come and give you a eternal of life, but I want to come in and I want to do a good work in you.

And I wanna carry it on to completion until the day I [00:57:00] meet you. That's what Jesus does for us. I said to them, you see, you got out an identity that's received freely from him and then watch him help you achieve because true love helps us to become better people. Uh, and that's the beauty of, isn't it?

Your, your mental wellbeing is absolutely stuffed if it all hinges on your own capacity to perform. We've got the best, the gospel we have now, the way the gospel is more pertinent now than probably ever in my lifetime, gives us an amazing opportunity in sports above all places. So it's a great time to be alive and a Christian, it really is in sports.

[00:57:42] Phil: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. That's great words. I think it's super, super exciting time to see. I, I think there's, it's ripe for what we were talking about today, and I'm so glad we were able have this conversation. Couple more questions. Um, you know, as, as we, we say [00:58:00] pretty much most interviews we say, uh, all good things must come to an end, you know, but you played with a lot of people.

You coach with a lot of people. What, who would you say, if you can think of one, one person that just sticks out, who's just a great leader, and, and what set them apart, from the rest?

[00:58:19] Graham: Hmm. Okay. Um,

one of the finest managers in, in Premier League history will be a name that won't be world famous. So in soccer, you'd think Alex Ferguson, sir Alex Ferguson, Manchester United, uh, perhaps the greatest or Arsene Wenger of Arsenal. They were two great enemies, uh, for 20 years at the top of the tree. The third longest serving manager in Premier League history would surprise people and many people would not know who his name is.

He's called David Moyes. He's a Scotsman, and he had the greatest nightmare [00:59:00] when Ferguson left Manchester United and they gave him the job and it absolutely fell apart because Manchester United were falling apart. Moyes is still in the Premier League today. He's the manager of West Ham and he's got way over a thousand games under his belt and hundreds and hundreds in the Premier League.

So it it's, it's a spontaneous answer by me. Uh, he and I were friends, uh, as boys. We played in the same soccer team at, at Cambridge and we played, uh, international school by football against each other. Scotland against Wales. Uh, and we roomed together and so on. We were good friends in our twenties and have remained friends ever since.

That man must have given thousands of interviews under pressure and without fail. Without fail, nearly always. His RAM is emotional. RAM as enough space to think of [01:00:00] the needs of the players who he's talking about 15 minutes after a defeat or success is easy, and his calmness and his ability to put himself to one side and think of the needs of others makes him, in my opinion, because he hasn't been with the big clubs, with the rich clubs, with the very famous clubs, with the top top players.

A man who stayed that long in the Premier League in my culture, and the quality of his human dignity and class and treatment of others is massively inspiring to me. Massively. So I, I could have looked for a name of somebody who'd be better known your side of the pond. Uh, but for me, uh, look up Moyes and watch any video of him post Match in the Premier League game, and you'll see quality from top to toe, high quality.

And is why is, is, why is football. He was, he knows that was his vocation and calling and he's been in it for the best part of 30 years as a top level [01:01:00] coach. And it's very easy. Sorry to be repetitive here, but you know, it's very easy when you've got all the budgets and all the money and all the top players.

But once you're in the Premier League, I in world soccer, you may be the best. You may be one of the best coaches in the world, but unless you're in man city or Manchester United or you're not gonna win things, hardly anything. Now that's what you call a quality leader, cuz everybody loves playing for him.

Everybody who ever talks about him says he was a brilliant manager. So West Ham played Arsenal recently, Arteta and them fighting to win the Premier League. Arteta is the manager. They interview Arteta before the game he played for Moyes. Yep. at Everton and Arteta says The finest guy I ever met and ever played for.

He's influenced everything I do at Arsenal. I love people like him. I love it. They know who they are. I see, isn't it? They know who they are. They know they're awesome. Awesome. Beautiful. Love it. [01:02:00] Love it.

[01:02:01] Paul: Yeah. Definitely doing some, some more research. Know, know, know who he is, probably just because of his stint at Manchester United.

Right. But a blip into the world and a blip out of the

[01:02:10] Graham: right. Imagine being defined by that now. But we now we are right, right around the circle. We, for most people in the world who know soccer, who are in Britain, that's how you know. Right. Imagine if that was your reputation and the dignity and quality to crack on 10 years after Wowsers.

That's, that's a proper block in

[01:02:33] Phil: English. And he, and he got hi. He got that gig because of the great work he did at Everton and, and brought Everton and kept them up and, and did what he did there. I remember Tim Howard talking about him when he was doing the Premier League mornings about how great of a manager he was, about how he loved playing for him, about how he was, you know, the player's manager and, and all that.

And he had an impossible job going in to come, come after [01:03:00] Ferguson. That was just unfair to anybody. Um, but, uh, yeah, and then to see what he's done at West Ham as well, I mean, is, is just in incredible. So, yeah, I, I

[01:03:09] Graham: totally agree, but that's why our in, that's why the industry's so great, isn't it? You know, we're talking here.

We, we cross, we cross back and forth across our pond. Uh, that's why I love the Luther thing. You see the station, the call in. It's no mistake, it's no mistake that God made sports. It's no mistake that he made the joy of sports. It's no mistake that he's the school of discipleship in sports. Mm-hmm. It, it's a great design.

It's a grand design for all of us who are in it. It's how we get shaped and honed. You know, it's not Michelangelo's sort of picture. And they asked Michelangelo how he makes a statue. And he says, um, well, he says, what we do is he says, I look at the statue of the great sort of 16th century sculpture, he says, and I can see the shape in it.

I can see the statue in the marble. I can always see it. I can always see it. I know what it's gonna look like. He says, the only thing is you're gonna get your hammer out to make the statue. He says, and, and then you'd say, there's a lot more hammer [01:04:00] than softening to make the real deal. What great a place to be shaped by God into a beautiful statue than the world of sports, which is so difficult and yet so rewarding when Jesus changes you in your school of discipleship. It's the best, best place to be a disciple, I think.

[01:04:21] Phil: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we have what I will call, because we have gone a little long, but I'm gonna call it our, our speed round here. Um, and, uh, there's two questions that we always ask. So I I, I am curious to hear what you'll say in this and, but, uh, I do know that we are, we are, we are a little over what we said we were gonna do.

So I, I wanna respect your time and everyone else's, but, um, I know you've learned a ton of lessons, but how have you used the lessons from, the game of football in your marriage and parenting? And, you know, obviously you could probably talk for hours on this, but you know, what, what are, what's one thing

[01:04:59] Graham: Yeah, [01:05:00] yeah, yeah. Great. Best lesson by a million miles. If you're gonna build a team, make the person right next to you, somebody you could live with forever. That's my lesson. My wife's amazing. I'm way outta my league, way outta my league in walking way in every possible way. Uh, if you build any team at your club, in any vocation, in any job, make the person who works closest to you somebody who you'd kill for and they kill for you.

That's my lesson from Family Life. Have a partner like that. Love it. Well,

[01:05:35] Phil: doesn't get much better than that. alright, well the last question we have, what have you watched, read, or listened to that has most impacted your thinking on how football explains life and leadership? Ah, well see

[01:05:45] Graham: that you've done it because it was Ted Lasso would mind.

No, because so people have now gotta go back to listen to the podcast on Ted Lasso that you made, because as a Brit you watch episode one and you go, ah, that's ridiculous. They're taking the [01:06:00] mickey out of English soccer. And then by, by episode three you're going, oh my word. This is a brilliant critique of English culture.

And by episode four you're saying, Oh my word. This is a leadership handbook. Mm-hmm. I mean, this is just a leadership handbook, so lasso, um, other than Martin Luther and John Calvin at top of my reading list at the moment.

[01:06:21] Paul: That's great. Love it. Lasso.

[01:06:24] Phil: Yeah. I can say lasso has been mentioned before, but Luther and Calvin have never been mentioned in that answer.

I will say that, but I, I, uh, that's just pretentious by

[01:06:35] Graham: me. That's just pretentious by me.

[01:06:38] Phil: One, I will say that kept coming, going into my mind when you were talking about, just, you know, the identity and the received identity and the idea of knowing your source. It just kept coming back. Andrew Murray's book on humility, one of the best books I've ever read, but just talking about the idea of humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it isn't thinking of yourself less, it's actually just [01:07:00] knowing your source.

And when you know your source, you can live it out at its fullest and, but, you know, don't boast in anything except Christ on the, you know, Christ and the cross. So, anyway, thank you so much, Graham, thank you for, your model. Thank you for, uh, I know the, the, what you've done encouraged me in a ton, even though we've only, we've never met in person, but just, um, meeting you, hearing you into this interview, has been awesome.

And just hearing how people speak of you speaks volumes, and our common mutual friends. So thank you for, um, just being faithful to the call and, for who you are. Appreciate you.

[01:07:39] Graham: Brilliant meeting you both. Thanks. I, I, I love chatting with you. It's really super. I, I wish you well. Thank you very much indeed.

Thanks Paul as well. Thank you. Thank you,

[01:07:48] Phil: Graham. Thanks Graham, and thank you folks for, for everything. Thank you for, uh, being a part of the conversation. I, I do hope that you, give us feedback. Give us your thoughts on this. Um, love to hear [01:08:00] from you. Uh, if you want more information about anything that we talked about in this episode, it will be in the show notes if you wanna learn about Warrior Way.

That will be in the show notes, coaching the bigger game also there. folks as always hope that, you're taking what you're learning from this show and you're using it to help you be a better, uh, spouse, a better parent, a better friend, a better leader, better coach, better in everything that you do.

And, remember continually that soccer does explain life and leadership. Thanks a lot. Have a great couple weeks.