In Episode 78, our sixth off-season talk between Seasons 5 & 6, Phil and Paul talk about how we can effectively build healthy teams, and how that starts with knowing, understanding, and leading ourselves. In all we do, we at HSEL strive to be part...
In Episode 78, our sixth off-season talk between Seasons 5 & 6, Phil and Paul talk about how we can effectively build healthy teams, and how that starts with knowing, understanding, and leading ourselves. In all we do, we at HSEL strive to be part of a movement that encourages a lifelong love for the game, leadership and character development, and human flourishing.
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Phil: Welcome back to the How Soccer Explains Leadership podcast. Thanks again for being a part of the conversation. Paul Jobson and I, Phil Darke love talking with you and you know, really just having a conversation, which is why we want you to engage the conversation. If this is something you've never done, drop us an email.
Introduce yourself and we'd love to learn what you're thinking about it. Any thoughts you have, any people that you think should be on the show, do that. Definitely. But we are continuing these off season talks today. We're talking about really choosing your team and in this case, really choosing your staff and how we can go about doing that in a way that is most life-giving to you and to others and to your team, you know, to the players that you are coaching.
So, Paul welcome. How are you doing, man?
[00:00:47] Paul: Doing great man, always excited to have these conversations. Spend a lot of fun. The off-season talks are fun. For me obviously get to hang out with you a little bit more and we will. Get into season six here pretty soon, [00:01:00] but some really cool things coming, coming ahead of us here in season six, but enjoying the time we get to sit down and love talking about building teams it's something that, obviously we've both done a lot of whether it's on the soccer side or in business or whatever.
Non-profits but building a team is something that. Really enjoy talking about, because I think there's a lot of intricacies in it that maybe people don't think about, maybe they do. I'm not sure, but I think it's something that we all, especially as coaches as, as you start to, whether we're talking to young coaches who at one point want to form their own staff, or maybe you're just your coach who needs to bring on a great assistant, what does that team look like?
You maybe you're a club coach who has an assistant, and maybe you have a team manager, those are teams, and those are teams choosing a captain is, is building your, your support team. So we can navigate this. However we want this conversation to roll, but I do think there's some, some definite things that kind of come in line as you as you go to build your team and I'll just throw this out there as the number one thing, and it's something we hit on, I think all the time on how soccer explains leadership. And the first thing, when you go to [00:02:00] build your team is you've got to know yourself, right? You've got to know yourself, you've got to know what your strengths and weaknesses are as, as.
And you can do that. Whether you go through a, you know, a DISC assessment or something like that, bringing in an expert like Phil Darke to help you navigate that we can't go too many episodes without talking about DISC, so I'll just have to do it. Okay. So I'll just throw that out there early, but you do, you need to know yourself no matter what, no matter how you do that.
There are plenty of great ways to do that, but I don't think you can truly lead a group of people well, or build a team very well. If you don't know what your strengths and weaknesses are, and again, it's not about building a team around you, but it, it kind of is. It's not, you know, if I'm, if I'm putting a team together of coaches to coach a group of people or I'm putting a team together like warrior way to lead our for-profit side or warrior way gives non-profit side, or I've got a team of people that are going into a club in a consulting environment. I'm different in every one of those avenues. My strengths or weaknesses are different in every one of those [00:03:00] avenues.
So the team that I built around me and each of those things has to look a little bit. But the first thing I have to know is is, is me. I know you've probably got some thoughts on that too. I'd love to hear your insight on, on that first aspect of, of building a team of self.
[00:03:13] Phil: Well, yeah, I mean, like you said, you have to know yourself so that, you know, What you're what you're good at, but also what, you're not good at what, aren't your strengths.
It's just as important to know. It's why, when I did strength finders, you know, I, I don't just talk about disc era. It's I talk a lot about disc. Yes. So on disc. Yes. I know I'm an ID. What, what does that mean necessarily? Is that I'm. And as C like, I have that in me, it's part of who I am, but it's not my default.
It's not where I go. So you as a CS, you know, even in picking a co-host to this show, I said, I want somebody who's not wired like me. Otherwise, we're going to be like the same person talking. And, you know, you can only have so much of, of me and an ID. Right. And it balances, you know, when coaching and [00:04:00] bigger game, I know I'm in a.
So I was able to go and find, you know, Christian who is wired very differently from me and it's a good thing. Or else we would have had a bunch of cool ideas, but they wouldn't have made it to a website. They wouldn't of made it to modules. They wouldn't have made it to, a platform that people can actually learn from.
So I need to know that with StrengthFinders, I didn't just do the top five. I did it all 34 to be able to understand what are my strengths, how, you know, what are the top ones? Yes. But also what do I really struggle? And I know I really struggle. I mean, one of the things that I have to work really, really hard at this might surprise some people.
It didn't surprise my wife, but given that I do orphan care, people are surprised that empathy for me is number 33 out of 34. You know, focus is 31 out of 34. That doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't mean I don't care. I care deeply about people, but to truly enter in is a lot of work for me and it drains me.
So I know that if I'm going to have to be a counselor, That's going to be really hard [00:05:00] for me. I'm probably won't last a long time to just be a, full time counselor. Like I look at a guy like Brad Miller, like to do what he does every day and to sit and just listen. Like I can do that in spurts and I'm working on it and I, I love doing it, but it's draining.
It's really hard. So to know that as a coach, to know that as a leader, you need to know whether it's soccer or whether it's the fortune 500 company. You need to know who you are, so that you can surround yourself with people better than you are in those areas. And so, and that's, you know, kind of leads to the next thing is, is finding out this other side of it, which is how do you bring people in to surround you? How do you know that as you're, as you're building out a team, because if you know, you can give them assessments and stuff, but you also need to really understand, you know, is this a person that I can work well together? It's not just on paper. I mean, you could get the, you know, [00:06:00] Anson Dorrance who coach forever.
He goes, Hey, Paul, I want to coach with you. I want to be your assistant. You'd be like, oh, that's kinda weird. Cause you're an amazing dude. But you got to find out a lot more than just knowing that he's been super successful in one of the most successful coaches to ever coach that may not be a good fit for you as a, as a coach.
Right. So what does that look like? For sure. You've done it. You've done it at a very high level. Right? So what did that look like?
[00:06:24] Paul: Well, I think, first of all, you know, you know, a unique thing about my journey is it now works. You know, my, basically my entire college coaching career with my wife, you know, and I think that's something pretty unique that doesn't happen very often.
It doesn't happen successfully very often. But that's a team that, you know, that is a team within itself, right? Your, your marriage, your union, but you know what God was able to do. Through us was put us together in a, in an environment where we were coaching together. And we are, we are two totally different types of PQR, but we compliment each other very, very well.
And th the way that the reason we're able to do that is we very early on [00:07:00] identified what our strengths and weaknesses are. And we, we stay in our lane for the most part, you know, there's, you know, you talked about you know, you're working on empathy. Well, yeah. 33 or 34 out of 35. It's not going to be number one through five, probably ever.
So you need to, you need to work on it and maybe know a little bit better, you know, those things, but it's like soccer training, right. Work on your weaknesses and try to get them better, but don't lose sight of the things you're really, really good at. Right. And keep honing those skills. So to me, I'm the more organizational, you know, we're going to, I'm going to get in and do the behind the scenes work and Marcy.
Super high energy motivational. You hear her talk you're, you know, and she's going to go run off a bridge. You're running off with her. You know what I mean? It's just, she's the motivating factor. And I'm going to figure out a way for us all not to die when we run off the bridge. So it's a great, you know, it's a great team right there.
But you know, I was blessed with that, but that doesn't work unless we sit down and realize that. I'm good at this. [00:08:00] You're good at that. Let's stay in our lanes. Let's compliment each other through this process, knowing that at the end of the day, I think the biggest thing for building a team is that whoever you're sitting down with in the day and working with your end goal has to be the same, right?
Your end goal has gotta be the same. We can sit in a room and we can disagree about how to get there. And if we understand that we're, we're passionate and we're maybe arguing, arguing, because we're passionate about the end goal, but the end goal is exactly the same. We're gonna get. And we're going to, we're going to grind each other.
We're going to sharpen each other. We're going to make each other better through our differences, but at the end of the day, because our passion is the same. Our goal is the same. We're going to get there a lot, a lot better with each other than by ourselves. What's the, what's the saying, if you want to get somewhere fast, if you want to
[00:08:44] Phil: go, if you want to go fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, go to.
[00:08:50] Paul: I couldn't think of it, but I firmly believe that
[00:08:53] Phil: an African proverb there is no, no one attributed to that statement.
[00:08:58] Paul: So, yeah. Well, I'm going to give it to [00:09:00] Phil Darke so it's not mine that's for sure. But I think it's important. And building a team. If I brought you give the example of Anson Dorrance, Anson Dorrance called me tomorrow and asked me to do something, I would do it.
Okay. I don't know what it would be, but I love dancing quality
[00:09:15] Phil: do
[00:09:17] Paul: hopefully. Yeah, no for sure. But, but I think at the end of the day, if I sat down with someone and they said, well, let's say, you know, you and I, you know, we get together, you asked me to do this. Like, well, we're both have the same reason why we want to do it.
We want it. We want to help others grow and develop and learn. And in the meantime, we help ourselves grow, develop and learn. But if you'd come in and say, Hey, Paul, I'm trying to get big and famous on a podcast. I'd love for you to come in and help me. I'd probably say Phil out. It's just not like I'm not into that.
You know? So I think that common goal is very, very important. I've I've had plenty of coaches. That I've interviewed that are fantastic coaches. But we just weren't, we weren't on the same page when it came to the end of the day of what are, what are motivated. You know, we talked last last week, I think about motive, [00:10:00] motivation.
You know, we've gotta be somewhat motivated in some similar areas of what kind of gets us going so that when we sit down and we say, Hey, I disagree with how we're going to do that. Let's find the best way to do. We're both in line with where we're
[00:10:12] Phil: going. Yeah. And I think implicit in what you just talked about, there is trust as well.
When I called you and talked to you about this, it wasn't just, Hey, I'm some dude who's never met you, but you're the Baylor coach. Let's go and see what we can do with this. No, it was, Hey, we built trust over the years. Like we have had a really not a ton of conversations and stuff.
But we had enough to know that we trusted each. Right. And so it's developing that trust as well. And so you talk about having the same goal, having the same vision. I mean, there's a reason why Lencioni's five dysfunctions of a team and the five healthy characteristics of a team have, lasted over, I think at least 20 years, probably 25 30.
I don't know exactly how long it's been, but Because they're right? I mean, it's works, right? It's, [00:11:00] it's build that vulnerability trust. That's at the bottom of that pyramid. It's like the first thing, if you don't do that, it's not going to work. That's how you can have healthy conflict because that's the thing.
A lot of people are scared to bring a bunch of people on who, who are different from them and who, you know, cause you know, there's going to be some tension and you know, there's going to be some conflict and you know, there's going to be some difficult conversations, you know, think about you and Marcy and me and Becca.
It's like. I heard number three is empathy. She thought she's like, you just don't care about people sometimes, you know? And I go, no, I do. I care deeply. But I just also know that, like I can't enter in at that level or else, I won't be able to do all these other things over here, you know? And she'd always have someone on the couch when I'd come home from work.
It was like some, she was a magnet for, you know, people that were going through major crises, you know? And so I told her she'd be a counselor, so she could at least get paid for it, but that's a whole different conversation. But that that's not something that I have ever had the, an issue with. Right. You know?
And, and so that could either annoy. I could either set you off at either [00:12:00] cause all kinds of problems or when you celebrate it because you trust and because you learn to love each other, it becomes something you not only love and celebrate, but you need because you realize how critical it is that what these people bring to the table make you better make your team better.
Th they, you didn't have that aspect, then it just wouldn't work. Things would fall apart. And so you come to love what they bring to the table too. And that's what I talk about all the time. When I train on DISC, it's look when the people that you tend to click with at the beginning, they're usually the.
Personality style is you because you click them, you get them. It's, it's the fluent language that you speak, right? It's, it's, it's there, but the people that are typically your long-term best friends are usually opposite from you, but it, it takes you a bit of time to build trust and to understand each other.
But when you do, you do compliment each other, you know, that old, cheesy you complete me. It's not really that. Mira McGuire, but it is what people often go to and use, [00:13:00] but it is it's that complimenting, it's something that they bring to the table. What you don't. And that's really attractive when, when we, I think the opposite attract thing is true, but it typically takes.
I think that, you know, we repel each other when we're the same over time too, because we started knowing each other because we're doing the same things and it's like, we see our negatives in them. It's harder to see in ourselves. Right. So if you want to see a blind spot, find someone wired like you and watch them for a while.
[00:13:31] Paul: Well, the hard, the hard part about that, Phil, we talk about building trust and, I've been fortunate that, I was not everybody I have. In my career. I knew really well, but for the most part, the people that I hired in really what I would call important positions, I've known and trusted when I brought them in.
Now, a lot of people don't have that luxury. Right. And they've got to hire somebody pretty quickly, or they're what they're hiring for. Is it somebody in their network that they're able to use within their own networks? So if you had to hire somebody, they don't know that they don't trust. [00:14:00] Yeah. And they've gotta be successful, you know, pretty much right away.
So building that trust It can be very, very difficult. And the old site. hire slowly fire quickly. Yeah. You know, I'm awful at getting rid of people. I mean, I'm awful at it. I probably held on to some people longer than I should have because I just, I just cannot.
I'm like, it's gonna work. It's gonna work. It's gonna work. But, so I'm saying this saying, I'm not getting. I am good at hiring slowly, but I'm not good at firing quickly, but I think, how long do you give that trust process of, Hey, I've got to get somebody in here. I don't know them that well, I'm going off some references of maybe people I know or don't know.
You know, how long do you go with that? You know, when you're building a team of, and trust is important and I I'm 1000% agree that trust is to the core of the, the base of a relationship when it comes to building a team. How do you, how do you, how do you navigate that? Like, Hey, we've got to win now.
I've got, I've got to trust you. How do we navigate that at the beginning of our relationship?
[00:14:53] Phil: Well, and that's where, you know, I look at that and I remember some hires that I've had that weren't great, you know, I mean, and. [00:15:00] I like you am a people person at that side of things. And I hate firing. I just hate it because I know the impact, I think of their family.
And I think of the fact that they gonna be out of work. And I think of the fact that, you know, all these things and it just, they might not like me and all these other things that are not great from a boss perspective. Right. My, my old COO he'd be like, you just need to get rid of them. Phil just cut the cord, you know?
And I'm like, that's not that easy. But it was. Because it was the right thing for everyone involved, including the person I was letting go. Cause it wasn't a fit. But that's still hard, but I'd say at the beginning, I mean, here, here, folks. So like here's some just practical, listen to this. If, if you, you know, I mean take it or leave it.
But from my experience, I'm just speaking from that check references. actually, don't just do a quick call, like have a, a long call with people and see if those references know anybody that, you know, because the more you can piggyback trust off people, you actually know and trust the better and that good [00:16:00] chance that if these people have been in the soccer world in this case, or in whatever you're working in, chances are they know somebody that you.
And then you can call that person and say, Hey, can you, you know, what do you know about this person I just talked with? Oh, they're amazing. They're incredible. Or, you know what? I wouldn't trust them, pass my nose. You know that though that's important from that reference too, because the people that we put on our resumes or that you put other people put on their resumes as a reference.
You know, they're basically taking them as part of themselves, right. That they're going to represent them. So if their references aren't reliable and aren't trustworthy, you know what, that, that will say something about them. Now that's putting a lot of faith in the people that you trust. If you trust them, then hopefully they're trustworthy.
Right? So that's something that I've learned a lot in the work that I do. And the work that I do is all, I'm a connector, I'm a collaboration hub. So trust is everything. Everything. If I text somebody and say, [00:17:00] Hey, I need help on something, or I have someone for you. If they don't trust me, then that text goes on.
Answered. Because the people that I work with do trust me because I've spent the time developing their trust and earning their trust and keeping their trust, which is hard work. When I send that text, they get back to me. They know that I'm not going to waste their time. They know that if I'm going to come to them with somebody who I think would be a fit for them, that I've thought that through.
And I know them well enough that it is. So that's something. It goes a lot and that goes to building your team and it goes to helping others build their teams as well. So anyway, I think we could talk about this for hours and hours, but do you have any kind of final parting thoughts as we wrap this show up?
[00:17:42] Paul: Yeah. I'll just wrap it up by saying, you know, the major takeaways from, from what we're talking about here of building a team is obviously navigate yourself first. Right. And then we talk about building a team through trust and I think to add onto that. Not just expecting people. And you kind of said this a little bit, but not just [00:18:00] expecting you to be able to trust others, but people need to be able to trust you.
You need to be trustworthy. You need to be a person of character and integrity. So that, you know, if you expect others to be trustworthy, you yourself need to also be trustworthy. And I think that's a big piece of of building a team. Is your, is your word. Your bond is what you say really what's going to happen.
And if not, if you make a mistake, can you own up to that that mistake. And can you own up and be just step into that and take, respond, take responsibility for your actions, whether they're positive or negative and look to give credit where credit is due.
[00:18:33] Phil: Yeah, that's where I'll leave it. I love it.
I love it. And the last, the last thing that I'll say is, you know, study your people. So study yourself. Yes. As you said, study your people when you're hiring them, study them to make sure it's the right fit. As you, after you hire them, study them, continue to know them deeper and better. Because then if it does come to a time where you see that it's not a fit, chances are, they will.
And in that conversation's a lot easier when you can, when you do have that trust and you can be [00:19:00] able to, to build that into them, and then your team will be strong because you guys will trust each other and you'll be able to go deep with each other. And then if it does cut to come to a time where it's not a right fit, or it's not the right thing, you know, chances are, there'll be feeling the same thing.
I know that's the way it was for me in different teams. And so with. Thanks again for your conversation for being a part of this conversation. Thanks again for just really engaging these things. You're listening to this show. You're thinking about these things. Hopefully you're applying them in your lives.
Hopefully you're using what you're learning to be a better parent, be a better spouse to be a better leader, to be a better team builder, And that you're continually remembering and reminding yourself through all these conversations that soccer does explain life and leadership. Thanks a lot. Have a great week.