Feb. 17, 2022

Self-Leadership and Pursuing Your Dreams with Jay Demerit, CEO of Rise and Shine, Former USMNT Player, and Former Captain of Watford FC and Whitecaps FC

Self-Leadership and Pursuing Your Dreams with Jay Demerit, CEO of Rise and Shine, Former USMNT Player, and Former Captain of Watford FC and Whitecaps FC

In Episode 69, Jay Demerit, Chief Energy Officer of Rise and Shine and former USMNT player, and former Captain of Watford FC and Whitecaps FC, talks with Phil about the pros and cons of specialization, self-leadership, self-belief, his personal why,...

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In Episode 69, Jay Demerit, Chief Energy Officer of Rise and Shine and former USMNT player, and former Captain of Watford FC and Whitecaps FC, talks with Phil about the pros and cons of specialization, self-leadership, self-belief, his personal why, the “inside” and “outside” game, what we can learn about leadership from the bench, and the work he is doing with Rise and Shine. Specifically, David discusses:

  • His story, his incredible journey to the Premier League and USMNT, how he developed his passion for soccer and leadership, and how he got to where he is today (1:48)
  • His thoughts on specialization in one sport and whether it is good or bad for athletes (6:00)
  • How he got excited about and focused on his classes as a kid (16:15)
  • His favorite sport as a kid (19:41)
  • His personal why and purpose, and how he is living it out in his life (22:17)
  • How self-belief and self-leadership are keys to discernment and perseverance in life (26:22)
  • The “Inside” Game and the “Outside” Game (30:37)
  • The importance of leaders leading themselves with excellence first before they can lead their teams with excellence (36:15)
  • What he learned from his time on the bench as a substitute (42:58)
  • His Rise and Shine organization and how it is impacting youth in great ways (48:03)
  • How he uses lessons learned in soccer in his parenting (52:30)
  • His recommendations (56:55)

Resources and Links from this Episode


Phil: Welcome back to How Soccer Explains Leadership. Thank you again for being a part of the show. Thanks for your download and you know, Paul Jobson and I absolutely love doing what we get to do today is no exception. I have Jay Demerit with me today, Jay, he was the captain of the US Men's National Team, Watford little team over in England and, the Vancouver Whitecaps.

He also has a documentary just about him. It's called Rise and Shine, and he is the CEO. But not the normal CEO. He's the Chief Energy Officer of a nonprofit of the same name. I'm just very excited today to talk with Jay about leadership. If you haven't heard of him, you might've had your head in the sand about 15 years ago or so, he's a guy who's got a lot of experience doing a lot of different things, and I'm just really excited to talk to him today about leadership and what he's learned through his journeys, what he's learned through his soccer playing days, as well as after retirement doing some pretty cool things.

So stick around for toward the end of [00:01:00] the the episode where we're going to be talking about some of those great things and how you can get involved with them. without any more from me on the intro, Jay, how are you doing?

[00:01:08] Jay: I'm doing great. Philip, how are you on, do you always need to get on here and talk about soccer leadership and share my experiences?

So again, thanks for having me.

[00:01:14] Phil: Absolutely. Absolutely man. Hey, so I point people to that documentary. It's fantastic. I watched it with my wife and my kids the other day. Anybody can watch it. I think it's great lessons for your kids about a lot of these things we're gonna be talking about today.

So for the full story go there, but can you just briefly share your story and really how you became passionate about soccer and leadership?

[00:01:38] Jay: Yeah, I mean, my, my, my story starts at the in the humble beginnings of Green Bay, Wisconsin, you know, I was a small town kid the only big time sports we had in our town where the Packers, but, you know, I think in a way that was a special place to grow up because we did have this kind of maybe one day I'll be at Green Bay Packer idea.

So I grew up with dreams that I could maybe be pro at something, but you know, I was a well-rounded. developer. [00:02:00] I began, we didn't have high performance programs to that level in soccer back when I was a teenager. So I played basketball, ran track all the way, all the way through high school.

And so I got a gifted scholarships, very small to leave town, go to Chicago, play small division, one soccer, changed positions made a career at myself in the collegiate level, but didn't get drafted. And so the world told me I wasn't good enough. I had a degree in design from the University of Illinois-Chicago.

So I thought, you know, maybe, maybe I'd just go get a job or do something else. And I got offered to go live in England. And I thought, I knew I'd have to do it the hard way, but I thought, you know, that light at the end of the tunnel in England was way bigger. And if anything, I could, I could go over there and gain some experience.

Not only because I believed I could still play, but mainly because, you know, at the end of the day, I thought I deserved a little bit of a, of a shot in some capacity. And so I took my shot and I went, I went to England, played in the 12th division, making 40 bucks in an envelope for over a season. To apply in away way in the mud and cows of the lower leagues of English football.

But I fell in love with the game there, saw what real football culture was or soccer culture is as, as they would [00:03:00] call it here in the states or in north America. But I fell in love with what it was about and I had to make it, and I worked hard. I did a lot of things behind the doors and eventually got a trial with Watford, made the team long story short, played 283 games from captain number for three years as the first American captain never played for the club.

And then played in the world cup for the. The United States in the 2010 world cups. So finished my career here in Vancouver, where I live now after riser shine, was brought out in 2010, which was the documentary about my story. It was a Kickstarter campaign. So the crazy awesome passionate soccer community of this world donated $223,000 on Kickstarter making it the largest at the time independently funded documentary in Kickstarter history. and for me, that was when my new purpose was born. This whole idea of taking the story where you go and make something happen and where you take your own belief upon your own shoulders and you go and make stuff happen at the highest level. It's a life story and Rise and Shine's become that. Now we're a youth program, a charity, a [00:04:00] fundraiser music festival, and now in a technological program, that's gamified learning for teenagers in, in partnership with, with EA sports. So Rise and Shine is, is more or less a mindset. And, and where I met you, Phil was talking about self-leadership at the coaches conference and rise and shine is a story of self-leadership.

It's a story of self-belief. And and, and, and that's really what we're trying to teach the next generation is, is that they can take their stories upon their selves. They don't need us. We're just there to support. And I think a lot of times, young people these days, they think they need us to get them there.

And they think they have to wait for that one contract or that one person it's all inside in my opinion, but how you get there is not the next time.

[00:04:38] Phil: Absolutely man. That's man, there's so much there and we will get to all of that. We'll go dive deeper into that. I could mine that for probably three and a half hours.

Just what you just said. I mean, the documentary is an hour and a half and there's a whole lot more to that documentary. I imagine that you could probably, there's probably a lot on the cutting room floor that could have been in that. But I just want to take a step back to your childhood right now. [00:05:00]So you, you, you did give the very short of the long story.

No question about it. There's some really cool stuff in that story that you know, I'm not going to do some spoilers here, but you know, you probably know a lot of those stories folks out there, but if you don't go check it out, we'll have that in the, in the show notes, you can go click on the link to that documentary, but you played multiple sports as a kid, right?

And you talked about green bay Packers, actually, one of my good friends, his son, he played at the high school that I coach at. Now he's playing for the Packers tied in Josiah to go. Really good kid, but you played multiple sports. You, you played football. If you track. If I remember correctly, if I do a little jump in and running today, unfortunately we don't have as many multi-sport athletes.

Can you discuss the effects you believe of kids specializing in sports too early or, or early in life, and whether you think it's good or bad for their development as athletes and as humans just in general?

[00:05:50] Jay: Sure. Well, and I think it's a big topic and I think it's becoming more and more of a big topic as we're realizing that sports specialization for the [00:06:00] 1%, I think makes sense.

But if we're trying to develop youth in the 99%, I think we're totally getting our structures in our infrastructure's wrong because if we're trying to develop high performance in a mindset that these kids can use sport as a tool to go and be who, whatever it is that they're going to be and find their passions in life, be it a CEO or a marketing director for Adidas or a chef at the famous restaurant.

You know, we forget that we had sports was built for teamwork, for taking on adversity, was built for communication, and it was built for a competitive edge. It was built for togetherness and, and, and, and I think we've taken a lot of that stuff away from kids these days. I think when we were able to play other sports and we were able to do other things, we forget about the team dynamics alone.

And that's when I ran track it was me versus me. And if I was on a relay, then it would be four versus the rest. That's pretty unique opportunity. If you're a golfer, it's the same. If you're a tennis player, it's the same. And so [00:07:00] there's that relationship with you, which I think if we take individual sports away from a developer, then that's a problem.

If I play basketball, I had four other players. And then I had to play offense and I had to play defense and it was really fitness-based and I had to defend and I had to do all these things and I had to score. Okay. That's interesting. And then all of a sudden I'm on soccer, I'm a 10 and I'm, and I'm one of the back and I'm shouting people around them communicated 10 people.

There's no stoppages. So I got to learn how to think on the fly. I got to do all of these things all well, there's 10, there's 20 other people running around me in with no stoppages. So if you think about that across the loan, just from the basis and the foundation of what the sports teach you from a social communicate of any of those perspectives, then you, you can see the lack of what I believe we're giving our kids.

If you just tell them at eight years old, Hey, you got to specialize in soccer and here's your road schedule for the next 10 years. And good luck, you know, are we doing them a [00:08:00] disservice because within the. They're going to get burned out within that their skill set is going to be limited. And within that, by the time they're 18, one of those a hundred are going to go somewhere that they actually dreamed that they were going to go.

And again, I mean, that's as minimal as a scholar, a college scholarship, not the professional contract that's role that the 1% of the 1% that goes there is the, is the next wave. But again, we don't even talk about that because I understand that most majority of young athletes want to get a college scholarship.

That's, that's one of the big results of a, of a young person. But then we also think about like, that's what I was talking about at the talk of like this whole idea of what the kids want. Like the intention of the athlete is singular. So us as coaches, we have to look at each of our athletes and go, why are you here?

Are you here? Cause your mom wants you to be here. Are you here? Because your friends are all here and you just want to hang out with them or are you a cause you want to call it a college scholarship and you want to work every day to get to that goal. Like again, all of those three things are valid. If you're [00:09:00] asking as a coach.

But if we don't know the intentions of our athletes to begin with, it's really hard to coach them because we don't actually know why they're there. And so I think if we start saying that all across the board with like, You can't play basketball cause you're not, you're not allowed to, and you can't do art if you're an athlete because you're not allowed to, we're already taking these unbelievable skill sets away from kids that have them built inside of them.

And it's up to the kids to figure out which skill sets they want when they're 18. But if we're not giving them a holistic experience to understand what skill sets they have, and we're not doing a good enough job and making sure that that 18 year old makes the right decision, wherever it is when cause it's going to be there it's for the first time.

And, and for me, I work in all of those things and I think that multitude of a holistic approach is the only way in my opinion. Yeah,

[00:09:43] Phil: and one of the things I loved about the documentary is you said that in college, the coach come up and said, Hey, have you ever played center back? And you're like, no, but I played basket.

And you know, that's what I teach my keepers. That's what I teach, you know, the different people that I'm, that I'm coaching. It's like the movement patterns [00:10:00] are pretty much the same. You just need to apply it a little differently and you, you know, bigger field than a court, but the same principles, the same ideas of that, the defensive movement I interviewed Corey close UCLA basketball coach.

And she talked about that. We talked about that very thing because she was a soccer player too. So, you know, not just from a human perspective, but from an athleticism perspective as well. Right.

[00:10:22] Jay: And then I always get asked now, like, well, I've seen high-performance coach be like, this concept would never work in our programs.

This is what we're trying to produce these players. And you have to do this to get to the line I'm asking. And I'm like, you can say that, but you can't say that to me because I did it right. I played against Lionel Messi. So you can't tell me that you can go to school for art and, and get a design degree and have nine jobs before you even turned pro as a 23, 24 year old, and then go learn into leadership.

And then he was all of these laundry set of skills that I learned through just doing it on my own and having to work jobs. Cause I didn't have any money and having to be with a bunch [00:11:00] of other people to learn how to talk to people and have a bunch of different bosses. So I could learn how to listen.

Now, all of a sudden I have these attributes where I get pro and I get a contract. Now I have a 12 year career because why? Because I'm a good athlete. No is because I had a lot of those skills that allowed me to hit the ground running in the professional environment. And we, and I learned those in life.

I didn't learn those in my program. I know that they teach it more now in the programs, but I definitely don't think they teach enough of it on a holistic level of like, even if you get to high-performance like, couldn't you teach basketball to your soccer kids. Yeah. You just got to bring a hoop to your training center.

You know what I mean? You, don't got to tell them, be a part of yo Schmo basketball program. You can do it within your walls. So that's what I'm saying, but you don't need to be scared about changing the whole program because I know a lot of youth directors they're so close to their programs that they think that they can't change the value system, or they can't change the practices because of all this pressure.

And again, the pressure is monetary value and not monetary value is scholarship. Yeah. That's a [00:12:00] hundred to $200,000 value for a parent alone. And then you talk about what the kid needs and it's like, they're. You know what I mean? What do they want to do? And so there's a big mix of this conversation and we could, I could do a whole podcast on this whole concept, but at the end of the day, I don't believe that we are providing enough of an opportunity for these kids to get to know themselves.

And that's the only way any kid is ever going to lead themselves in life is if they know themselves enough to make their own decisions.

[00:12:29] Phil: Absolutely. Lee Lee baker, who I interviewed probably in season two of this, of the show, he, he runs a legacy soccer club down in Houston and he was an All-American.

He went and he played, I think, I can't remember if he played a MLS or not, but really good player. And he's run this club. He ran the Texans down there in Houston or down in Texas for awhile. And they, they do that with exactly what you said. Well, not exactly, but for, they basically take the soccer team, the soccer coaches, coach basketball.

And they go play in a basketball [00:13:00] league. And so that idea that let's be innovative, let's be creative. Let's not just go the, this lane that we know, and we stay there. Let's, let's be thinking bigger and let's be thinking for the kids and what's best for them.

[00:13:11] Jay: A hundred percent. And I think it's, again, it's, they're not as bored.

You know, we got to also think about how you, how you keep your, your learning appetite strong. You know what I mean? It's the same, even you're a pro. If you've got a coach that just does the same training session every day, you get bored and you're not evolving and you're not innovating. And I think that that really was where my creative background came in.

You know, I went to school for design and have a degree in product design and it just always taught me about this whole. Now you've made a prototype, test it, do it, get feedback and make another prototype. And it's the same thing when you're coaching. And it's the same thing when you're playing. So as you, as the individual should know.

I'm a product. I'm putting myself out there. I need feedback. I need to keep figuring out my strengths, my weaknesses, my skills, whatever. That's a refinement of self, right? That's one vehicle. But then the other side is you like, you're the [00:14:00] coach? What do you want? If I'm not now I have to communicate with you.

And I have to figure out ways that we can work together so you can inspire me and I can inspire you. And together we can have this coach player relationship that allows us both to grow and you to win championships and, and me to get scholarships and do all this stuff, which is the result of a lot of this, a lot of the action and the practices we're doing.

And I think that there's a lot of there isn't enough of that. There isn't enough of communication between coaches and players. There isn't enough self success self-assessment as an individual. And I, and I don't just mean as a player. There's way more way more than that. Analytical information about every player you could ever look at, but we're not.

I think that we're taking a lot of human away from it, too. This whole idea of like, who's the human behind it? Where are their intentions? Do they want to be there? Because again, a lot of it's the scholarship thing. And it's like, once you get that, then it's like, oh, finally I can be myself. And then they got to.

Try it again, it's like, you know, I think that we can do a better job in the [00:15:00] interim. So we, we can, we can stop a lot of the crosshairs at 17, 18, 19 20, 21, 22, where all this stuff starts to get mixed up and mental health is through the roof. And because a lot of this pressure in between is, is, is I think where it stems from.

But if you tell the kid that they can feel safe and who they are, and you can give them a curriculum that allows them to be safe in their awareness. So they don't need someone else's pressure to validate their feelings. Now you're talking about a program that actually will produce kids that will fall off that production line at 17, 18, 19 2222.

And they'll be fine. And that's what we're supposed to be doing.

[00:15:32] Phil: Absolutely, totally agree. Speaking of being bored, I imagine based on what I watched as you as a kid, it seems like you're wired probably pretty similar to me and Andy and my son who watched that documentary with him. I told him he could ask a couple questions.

So I've never done this before. So I think you'd enjoy this cause you work with kids all the time, right? So the, one of the things he wanted to know, he said, You know, when you were a kid and he just assumed you was you struggled to focus, but he said, how did you get [00:16:00] excited about school and focusing on your classes?

[00:16:05] Jay: Well, I mean, I had, I had a little bit of an accountability system within my parents and the things that I wanted. So both my parents were coaches and educators, both my parents were gym teachers. So I was just like around gyms all day long. I'd go pick up. My, my mom would teach at a different district, but my dad taught in the middle school.

So we got sports fields and we just were always around my grandpa and grandma were coaches and their grandpas and grandmas were coaches. And so I kind of come from this lineage of coaches and with that comes questions with, that comes accountability with, that comes communication, of course. And if you extra whistles in a lot of different directions but what that did allow me to do was was.

Was to to take that time and energy and actually put it into places. So you're not just sitting with yourself and being bored. Part of that was my own ability to just put myself in a situation where part of it was that was the support that I had and the places I could go and do. And so I'll put a lot of focus on that.

Just, just get, just being busy and trying to find out things I was interested in. And then, I mean, the [00:17:00] second part is just that support piece of like, if you, if you go in and you try something new, I was supported. I wasn't like, ah, see you suck at that. Yeah. You know what I mean? And we see a lot of that in, in parents and, and the support systems that, you know, aren't there for our kids as much.

And especially if we are in a, more of a single lane now, if I was in five lanes of support, because I got this coach and the players, and I got this thing and I get my parents and then I got my, my other son, my friends and my, my, my supporters that liked me for this reason. If you do all that stuff, eventually you'll find somebody that will catch you on a support system.

But if I'm only doing one thing and I've only got one coach, and I only got these many players that are all probably like me, you know, where are we getting this whole wealth of experience and understood. You know, and if we're not putting ourselves out there in different places, and we're not trying other things or trying not to be bored and just sitting with ourselves or just playing the same video game over day.

And when you get home, you know, you're not really going to evolve. You're not going to innovate to that whole self-understanding piece. And again, [00:18:00] that creates the calmness of I'm going to be okay if I make that decision and I fail, I'll still be fine. Cause I know that this is what I'm like. It, it, it, it D it really decompresses the whole journey because you're not so stressed all the time, put all my eggs in this basket.

And what happens if this basket doesn't make it, I got stress going into it because I'm like, shit, what if this doesn't work? And then I got parents who paid for that basket. It's like, well, I paid for this basket, dude, you got to do it. You gotta do it. And then the coach over here is going, you know, oh, that's a nice basket, but I got 14,000 other baskets to look at too.

So you're important until you're not. And so then all of a sudden it's just stress and anxiety everywhere. And I think that's part of the big system flaws of, of how we can improve, but also just, we got to start by being aware of what the problem, what the problems are. And I think, you know, try not to be bored and creating a curriculum of, of that I think is the first step.

[00:18:54] Phil: Yeah. Yeah. His mom's a PE teacher as well. So he can relate [00:19:00] on that too. He goes, his initials are J D to, Hey, this is just crazy. So similar. I was laughing. So, but the second question he had, it will be a shorter answer. I don't know if it's going to be an easier question to answer, but he asked what was your favorite sport when you were.

[00:19:14] Jay: Well that came and stayed. I grew up as wanting to be a green bay Packers player. So football was my first my first love I still have probably missed 15 Packers games in 42 years on, on my TV. I find it every Sunday for sure. I'm a little bit disappointed. So I don't really want to talk about the

[00:19:29] Phil: last we're not, we won't get into that.


[00:19:31] Jay: get into that right now. But yeah. And then, and then you know, I just, I just really liked all of them and I liked the fact of like, soccer became my best sport, but. Because I was always small and I wasn't, I was always developing, cause it was always a little bit off from my height and my, and my physicality.

So I didn't really become a really good soccer player until I was like a teenager. I was always a little, and then once I got to high school, I, my skills and my speed started to go my hype didn't. But, but that allowed me to be a good soccer player, but my [00:20:00] heightened, my physicality and football was kind of off the bat now.

Cause I was like, I'm 16, I'm going to get crushed out there. So I'm going to go try to duke. I like soccer. Soccer's cool. I'm going to go try that. But again, I think taking a lot of the values in each of those sports and again, that whole competition. My dad was the track coach at he's in a Wisconsin track hall of fame for for coaching.

So it was my grandma. And so I grew up mainly as a track family, you know, and, and, and going all to my dad's meats. And I remember the best thing I did. And this is where that mentorship kind of part of where my programs are built is like some of the best memories I ever had. From a developmental standpoint is sitting on the benches of my dad's.

He was high school coach for football. He coached the track team for 35 years. And I just remember sitting on the bench, always looking up to these older kids from the time I could remember like five, six years old, just be always at the bench, Hey, serving water or doing the stuff or running around, you know, it was cool.

Cause I can hang out with high school kids when I was nine. And in a way that was such a good like inspiration tool for me and a mentorship tool. I can have [00:21:00] these older kids always telling me what to do or put me over here. So I'll race you to that thing. And I dunno, I dunno if we're bringing enough mentorship into our young people, either where we have young kids to look up to that are still young.

We're not looking up to messy cause we're trying to make them think that they're going to be them. Like why aren't we creating programs where we can look up to the high school quarterback? That's a really cool guy. Yeah, because we can always be. Mm, you know, we can, or at least that's a, that's a much, a much more realistic goal that we start with rather than saying, like, if you don't get an Adidas contract, by the time you're 20, then you're failing.

Like it's just so backwards to me. But again, I don't come from that program then. So I had, that was my story. And so this is what I teach now. And this is why the programs are, what I'm trying to do are becoming more important to, I think the future, because my goal is that, how do you create that environment of mentorship, but belief systems and skill sets, skill sets doing a bunch of different things.

[00:21:52] Phil: Absolutely. And that, that goes perfect segway, man. You're good at this. A perfect segue into the next question. What is your personal, you kind of got [00:22:00] into this a little bit, but what is your personal, why? Like what, why, why do you exist and how are you living that out in your life?

[00:22:07] Jay: Well, again, I just, just like skillsets and experience.

I think it all changes and. You know, now my, I believe that my purpose and my why is to inspire based on the story that I was, I have been so fortunate to, to be a part of. I, you know, I see inspiration from it every day. It inspires me to tell it, it is, it inspires young people or people like yourself to hear it.

And so that's one, and then the second part is how do you use it? And so that's like the empowerment piece. So it's to inspire and empower is, is kind of where, where my real purpose lives. And that's now it's how do you take a story that I helped create on my own, but now use it as a tool to empower the next generation to say, listen, I'm not, I don't consider myself.

You know, this incredibly special soccer player. Like I consider myself someone that took it upon themselves to go and create their own story. [00:23:00] And, you know, I believe we all have that in us. And I believe that we all kind of would love to try it, but there's a lot of factors that will stop you along the way.

And I think if we don't teach a mindset first, then eventually someone else will tell you to stop and you'll win or they'll win. And because when you got to get to the crazy stuff, you know, the whole Nike campaign of it's only crazy until you do it. Yeah. Is a whole, is a mindset piece more than anything.

And, and that, that self belief in it's true. What you're crazy. What you crazy? That's no one, that's somebody not believing in you. Right. You know what I mean? And so that's at that moment because that comes from peers, parents, coaches, you name it, bullies, you, you name it. Any of it, you're going to get that stop conversation.

And it's tough. Belief is what breaks you through that conversation? You go on at school. I don't, you don't need you. I want your support, but I don't need you to tell me not that I'm not going to make this. I can tell you [00:24:00] that I can, but that's a whole another, that's a that's you gotta have a strong mind to be able to do that and to believe in you, rather than believing the words that are somebody else's.

And I think, you know, finding that inter internal compass is a, is a process. You know, some people are born with this natural leadership ability or this natural ability, just think they know what they want, but most people aren't. And so that they needed to figure that out in our, and I don't believe we're creating an a digestible enough code to figuring that out, especially for young athletes, because they're so one dimensional now.


[00:24:33] Phil: So let's talk about that. That what you just talked about in that, in that answer, just this idea. I heard a couple things in there that I wanted to get into. One is overcoming adversity, resilience, you know, failing forward. So to speak is John Mac. Put in a book one day. But also as it relates to pursuing our dreams.

Okay. So there's, there's a, there's a distinction between persistence and perseverance and delusion, right? [00:25:00] So if you're, you know, my, if you're five foot two, and you're trying to make NBA basketball, that that might be, you know, I mean it Muggsy Bogues was five, six, so could it happen? Sure. But like, there's this sense of delusion in that, which happens a lot.

I think, as you talk about college scholarships and stuff as well, and persistence, perseverance, because there is a, there is a, you know, you have to overcome barriers, you will fail, you will, you know, my son got cut from the eighth grade team and then he worked his butt off and proved them wrong. May the ninth, two teams started whatever there is though there is that side of it.

But how do you balance that and how do you, how, how would you basically advise someone that was discerning, you know, I'm going to pursue a dream. Or I'm just going to kind of settle for the fall back. And I know you did a Ted talk on this cone. How have you, are you ready for your sunny day? Great. Ted talk, go check it out.

We'll have the link to it. We don't have time to go into all the details of it, but we don't need to because it's there. But do you get that? You see where I'm going with this, as far [00:26:00] as you, you're going to overcome adversity on our way to a dream, but at what point do you in the discernment process? I mean, you, you obviously kept pushing through.

I mean, there were a lot of people who told you that.

[00:26:12] Jay: So that's what the self belief piece comes in. You know, the whole self leadership is, is literally an unlocking of, of a trait that allows you to unlock the next one that requires this whole relationship with you. And so it's the first of the intention.

So if my intention is to get the scholarship, I know what it takes to get there, but I got to work back. I got to work small increments from intention a is I want to get a culture. Okay. Now what do I need to get a scholarship? Okay. First I need to be this. I need to start from my team. I need to be the best.

One of the players in my valley, I got to, I got to go to these recruitment camps and then I got, then I'm going to get a college. Right. And if I don't play well, if I don't start for a team, if I don't, you know, are we working backwards enough to understand that the steps and then, okay, so that's the intention.

And then from there, it's, it's this whole awareness piece, like, what do I need to do that? What outfit first? Maybe I need to get my feet [00:27:00] better. Cause I talked to a scout and he's like my passing out of the back. Isn't good enough. Okay. So that's a nice work back. So now, now it's my passing. Cause I know that that's one of the ways that I'm going to get there.

And then I, so that allows us awareness piece. Now first I have intentions. Why I'm here. Second is the awareness. The third thing is the confidence building pieces. And so that's the. What are the, what am I good at? What am I, why am I going to get picked? Why am I going to get the scotch? Because I'm good in the air.

It's because I'm a good leader. I use my voice. Those are the things you should always make better. Always be good at what you're good at. But when you look on the other side, I got to know what I'm not good at either. What's not going to get me picked. So that's what I'm hitting the ball off the wall with my left foot for 50,000 times over the first, a couple months of the season.

Cause I know that scholarship, that's the only way I'm going to get there, but I know that my left foot is getting up, but if I'm not aware of it or if I'm scared of it or if I've practiced on that skill, because I know I'm not good at. That'll help that that'll be one of the hurdles. That'll be one of your adversity pieces.

Oh, I wasn't gonna pick them, but I didn't. Cause he wasn't quite good in a pack. So passing. So again, a lot of us, we know it, but a lot of the times it's hard to do work and it's hard to do [00:28:00] things that you suck at. But I always say my advice for doing those is like, when your weaknesses it's Duma, no one else's around.

Yeah. No need to start working on your diagno balls in the middle of a game, you do that after training or on your Saturday or on your day off or go grab your buddy and go to the park because we all know what we're good at. What we're not, that's not hard to see. And if you don't know, coaches will tell you to, but it it's that work in between.

It's that whole idea of like working in the dark, what that looks like, because everyone is working, everyone's going to training. But if you want to start hopping people in your line of success, that it's thousands of them standing in. When I went from university, I was 24, 23 years old. I probably had 5,000 people that were at my level in front of me, but how do I start jumping?

Well, first it's like, I got to get better than them because I got to get picked over them. So that means I gotta be better than them, not the same. And so how am I going to be better than them? If they can't hit the diagno, I'm going to hit, keep hitting until I can. That's one way, another way is like, if it's a fitness test that they're looking at, I might, am I practicing enough on my fitness score?

So when it matters, I use it, [00:29:00] you know, are we doing enough of that dark work in my opinion. And I don't, I don't know if enough kids do that, but in the way, once you start doing the dark work that builds the confidence, right? So that's step three. And now I got confidence because I've done the work. I know what I'm good at.

I know what I'm, I've asked the right questions. I've received feedback. And now I'm starting to create confidence in myself because I'm working and I, they go, Hey, I know what I can go out and mark that guy, cause I'm fast right now. My 40 time is up. My fitness levels are the highest era band I've been working on my footwork and my box, my box defending, I go play against number one forward ranked guy.

That's going to go play for Stanford. And I wiped the floor. You think, because I've done all that work in the dark. So then I can ward the shine when I'm playing against that recruit. And then all of a sudden I walk off that field. Do you think I have more confidence now? Of course I do. And so that's how you gain these confidence pieces because confidence is what unlocks the last thing.

And that's the self belief that I don't need anyone to tell me. Cause I know I can do it. That's only unlocked until you know who you are. Well, you know why you're there that's intention, number two, you know, awareness. So [00:30:00] you know what, you're what you're like as you now you've done a bunch of the belief.

That's the confidence pieces because you're training in the dark, you know what you're doing? You're asking good feedback. Your coaches are there now I've unlocked the belief piece. Now I believe I can do it. I don't need anybody.

[00:30:13] Phil: Yeah. No, absolutely. And so this goes to, this is the self-leadership that you're talking about and you also talk the inside game and the outside game.

Right. So let's go into that. So that what you just talked about really is the, the inside game part of it, correct?

[00:30:27] Jay: Yeah. So there's a job. There's two vehicles within the self-leadership piece is one. You have to understand yourself first, before you can even go to the rest of the world, the outside. And that's your parents, your teammates, your classes, your stadiums, your that's, all the outside world that has nothing to do with your relationship with that's the inside game that we talk about.

And that's the four step process. Why am I here? What am I doing? That's intention, the awareness piece. Am I aware of what I'm like, what am I, and it's okay to know what you're like. Do you know what I mean? Because then you at least know what to work on from what's

[00:30:55] Phil: critical to know what you're actually mean.

Not just, okay. You have to know what you're

[00:30:58] Jay: like. Exactly. [00:31:00] And then that self-confidence piece of like, how do you gain self-confidence you gain you, you practice you you, you, again, you're still learning. It's a feedback program. And then from there, you. And when you believe you can lead, because if you don't ask anybody, the best leaders in the world are ones that people look up to because they want to believe what that person is fighting for, what that person is leading the line for or what that person started a business for or whatever, whatever is leading.

If I'm not inspired by that person, then I'm not going to follow them. So the whole idea of that is like, now that I know myself and I have confidence in myself, I know where I am and I'm aware of what I'm like. So I can bring in other teammates I can ask for good feedback from my coaches. That's now the next step of like, now you go into the outside world and then you're like, Hey coach.

I know I haven't been playing very well out of the back. And you think it's my, do you think it's my. My range of passing. Do you think it's my ability to like knock it the defense up yet? Like if I don't know myself in what I'm doing, how am I going to ask that good question to my coach? And I think a lot of times it should stem [00:32:00] from the athletes.

The coaches are there to help and support, but if the athletes don't know what they're doing, because they haven't, they haven't practiced enough to know what they're good at. And they actually haven't thought enough to know what they're like, then it's very rarely going to get it going to read this result of, of belief.

And I don't mean to help you. And so that's kind of where the, where the, where the steps, the steps come in. And I think a lot of times, you know, we're not getting the order, right. Either we're too, we're, we're too worried about what Johnny's doing and what his is going to be like, or, or that he's better than me at this when I can't worry about Johnny until I'm solely confident in myself and what I'm doing, you know what I mean?

And, and as I got into leadership roles later in my career, when I was captains of teams, both in Watford and here in Vancouver, No, I realized very quickly cause I, when I got my first leadership role, so I was like, I'm worried about too much about everybody else. And my first season at Wofford, I got my captains to be taken away from me.

I was, I was captain for like four or five months. We just made the playoffs. We kind of limped into the playoffs and I wasn't playing very well because [00:33:00] I was too busy worrying about everybody else because all of a sudden I wore an arm band and I was like, whoa. And then I then affected my thing, but I learned very quickly that if I wasn't solid and my performance, isn't who I was, and they're not gonna, they're not gonna lead by the guy.

That's kicking the ball out of bounds and making mistakes and giving the ball to the other team. Cause I'm playing like crap. Like that's not good leadership ability. That's not good leadership trait. And so I had to learn that really quickly when I got into leadership roles that unless I was whole in myself, how am I going to go out and help my teammates?

How am I going to go out and have a good relationship with my coach so we can keep getting constant feedback so we can go in and help our team win. Like, and so it's very crucial that you understand the order, that if you don't understand yourself and have that whole like internal inside game piece, it's really hard to unlock the outside gate piece.

And so I think just having the unique understanding of what that means is a great place to start. And then the second part of that this whole outside game is this relationship between everybody. Are you a good teammate? Are you, do you have a humble approach to working [00:34:00] hard? Do you ask good questions to your coaches?

Are you trying to. Specifically look at what you're good at and what you're not and asking the right feedback. And are you, when you walk into a different stadium, if you are a California kid and you go to a tournament in Philadelphia, do you know the difference? And do you know that Philadelphia is a different place?

The players are going to be different players, like have you thought about the environment you're living into too? And that's also another question of like this whole understanding of like these outside worlds also have information and they're all built in there. And so if I am a kid from Texas, I should think that I'm going to Philadelphia and I'm playing against different players.

Not just that I'm playing with gangs, KA players that are like me. And cause then you're only going to get halfway there. But if I'm actually putting so much detail into the outside game of getting to the, to the finite details of all those pieces, teammates, environments, games, purpose, you know, all of that stuff.

It's so important to look. But if I don't know what I'm looking at and who I am in the beginning, then those it's really hard to unlock those.

[00:34:59] Phil: Yeah, [00:35:00] definitely. Now you talked a lot about players there and I just want to be clear. A lot of coaches are listening to this coaches. What he's talking about.

Self-leadership this is why we have the number. One thing we teach it's about six modules and our coaching, the bigger game program. Self-leadership if you aren't aware of yourself, if you don't know your why, if you don't, if you're not self-confident, if you don't have the characteristics of a leader, you're not going to be able to lead others.

Well, you're not going to be able to lead others in their self leadership. And so that's something that I just, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I don't wanna just make sure that you agree with that, that the coaches, I mean, just today, this wasn't even part of the script. There is no script anyway, but this wasn't part of the outline.

Ray Hodgson just named your, your beloved Watford manager and Claudio Ranieri out. So, but this idea of the manager is leading the team and leads. The captains leads. The leadership team leads the players, but if they're not. So healthy in themselves, the team will suffer. And do you agree with that and how have you seen that play out [00:36:00] with the different managers that you've had and how they've been able to lead you and your team?

[00:36:05] Jay: Yeah, and I think it's a good question because when I, you know, obviously I'm on social media saying In Roy we trust and all these kinds of things. And again, Ray Lewington, who's his assistant and has been for them, even from the England team. He was a manager that signed me up at Watford. So he, you know, I have the ultimate love and respect for that guy.

He gave me my life and believed in me when no one else did. And you know, at the end of the day, that empowered me to go the player, that, and be the player that I did, I was given an opportunity and, and I took it upon myself to make the most of that opportunity. And I believe that that's at its core, what coaches have to do.

And the rest of that is support and to create a good value system that allows the players to believe in it. That's the empowerment piece. And that goes back to what you were originally talking about is how do you as a coach empowering your individuals. And I, and a lot of people on social media are already like, well, it's great to have another name that we've heard of, but it's the players that are going to win the games.

And it's so true. Like it's so true that this whole, like the [00:37:00] players still got to go get it done. You can have the system in the world, but if you don't have the players that believe that they can play those positions in that system that are gonna allow them to get the three points. You know, again, that's down to the players, that's down to the 11, 15 guys that ended up playing in a game.

And again, that, that level of how do you get both of those, right. And have feed one feed. The other is the key. It's like you got to empower the players by letting them then individually believe in themselves. And then alternatively, believe in the collective at the same time, because if you're not empowered myself again, back to that whole, I am my own vehicle.

And if I don't know what I'm doing is me, I can't go to the outside world and, and, and, and do well is easy. And so it's a mixture between those things. How do you empower men management? We've hear that kind of all the time, best, best managers in the world or the best man managing. Pat Alex Ferguson's. And even I, in my opinion, Bob Bradley was an incredible man manager because, you know, you went and you looked at our teams when I played in 2009, 2010 seasons, when we had our old, some of her best years ever as a national team, [00:38:00] we were just a bunch of empowered individuals that all really love playing with each other.

All we had to do was go out and do our jobs. That was it. And then you saw the results because of that. But again, Bob had to put those names on the team sheet, which 11 do you choose out of? 28, 25, 23 was over there on the camps. But you know, at the end of the day, I think you got to pick the empower guys.

The, the, the people that they, they want to be out there, but they're like, they really get why they're out there. And I, and I think that it's, that's a two-way street coach understanding why play or understanding why communication in between finds the answer. And I think that that is the key and, and that's what Roy will have to do when he gets to Wofford you're dealing with, and the higher you go, the more egos you built, you know, you're playing with guys that are, you know, they're, ego-driven, they're money driven, they're contract driven, whatever it is.

Some of them will be team driven, but at the end of the day, they're not as much, you know what I mean? And so you got to figure out how you, how you can empower ego. How is it you know, add goal [00:39:00] bonuses to their structure, if it's an ego person, or if it's you know, I have team dynamics in inside that allow like internal competition for things, or say, have accountability scales within your athletes that allow them to manage themselves as well as the bigger system, which is managed by the manager or the coach.

And so within that, it's like you got to create your own internal system based on the parts you have in your locker room. And again, if you don't know each what each of those parts brings to the table, it's hard to create a philosophy. It's hard to create a, a system. And so again, it starts with that individual.

Again, it goes back to how is the individual working on themselves? How are you as the outsider, helping that person define what those systems and things are, and then how you work together in parts of 18 players to make sure on, on the day we go over. We're going to have an empowered 11 built by an empowered bench, built by an empowered mindset.

That's collective. And so that's where this starts to come. And so Roy will start by managing the players. He'll go in that locker room today and he'll start talking to the guys one-on-one and he'll bring the special ones that he [00:40:00] thinks are going to be his leaders into a locker room. One-on-one he'll bring them into his office and they'll be like, Hey, we think that you can be one of the leadership groups here.

We really appreciate, you know, this why your reason, and this is why, and this is why. And then that person's going to stand up and go, okay, I can empower this and he'll do that to four or five key guys in the leadership group, defined them as them. And then together they'll create a system and a value system.

That's going to allow them to have the rest of the season. And in a way, if they get, if they get a game, that's the new practice and they get a. New practice. Good job. That's now gaining confidence back to step three, then I'm allowed, but first you got to where, you know what I mean? So now you can see kind of how this works.

And so he'll get, he's going to have to start back on the confidence piece he's talked about today that there's there's we see the players in the locker room. Why, why aren't we hiring the league and then to go back to see step three? Cause it seems like they're not don't have any confidence because they don't, you know, they're losing all the games.

It doesn't help me gain confidence when you lose every week. Right. And they just got beat by Norridge their rival in the same place position. So they're not going [00:41:00] to have much confidence right now. So they're going to go have to have to go back to step two awareness and development of, of, of all those types of things.

And so, you know, I hope that again, just cause I'm a Watford fan that they can turn it around, but the relegation battles wild.

[00:41:14] Phil: Yeah, no kidding. It's going to be crazy when this year, too. You know, as you were talking, it reminded me of one of my favorite scenes and Ted lasso. Of course, it's good. It's going to come back to last at some point, but I don't know if you've watched it.

Where lasso is just says to beard. When, when Roy. Left. He was ticked off. He left the office and he just said pointed out him. He said, he's the one who reminded me of it. When you, when you were talking about that. Right. He knew if they got him to get it, to believe, to be able to do that. They'd be the one.

So, you know, I know we have a couple more things I want to get to. I know we gotta, we gotta wrap this up cause you got places to get. But the, the one thing I there's three. Three things real quick that we want, I want to get to one of them that I think is really important for people to hear. And I want to hear from you because you sat on the bench, you were a sub in the [00:42:00] 10th division or lower.

I didn't know where I forget where south hall was, but it was really low. On the, on the football pyramid, he lived in an attic for crying out loud. For, for over a year. You were watching from the bench, you were a rookie American on Watford, you know, you were, you were not a captain. A lot of the times you were a sub a lot of times.

Right? And you were, you kind of, you got, you were rejected by the MLS out of, out of college. So what did you learn from being a follower? Because there's, there's the reality of every great leader needs to be a great follower first and every great leadership person. You'll hear it will say that. So what did you learn from the bench and how can you encourage people who are on the bench or what did you learn when you weren't that, you know, leader of the team from those who were leading from those who were on the field when you were watching.

[00:42:48] Jay: Well, I guess then that's a great question. And I think the, the, at the core of it, when you're on the bench, you get to watch, you get to pay attention. You get to have a lot of information that you don't get to see, and you get to see it from a different [00:43:00] perspective, because when you're on the field, it's a different story and there's a lot to manage, but if you're on the bench, you can, we can watch the game you can learn.

And then when I got to England, that was the first thing I did when I didn't play out. If I didn't make the bench, I'd sit up in the stands and I would watch the four center backs. How about teams? Both teams? Can I just watch them? And I would get all this information and be like, oh, he likes to push up.

He's more like me. He seems like a good athlete. I want to see how he marks that person in the box. There's a lot of information that you can, that you can, that you can acquire by being on the bench. If you're not thinking about yourself, if you can drop your ego and say, I'm here. Right now, I'm not good enough for my, for my manager right now.

And again, I'm talking about the day I'm not talking about, that's why you can always be good enough. Cause while you're on the team, they can go back to there. You deserve to be here because you're on the team sheet. Now. It's like, no, I want to be a starter. If I'm on the bench, I'm not starting. And so that's the first piece of humility.

That you need to earn. And I believe that humility is earned. You got to take the punch before you can get up. You know what I mean? You [00:44:00] gotta, you gotta go through that adversity first before you can actually come to the other side and go. That was good for me. I was a good learning experience because it allowed me to realize I wasn't good enough in marking in the box because I did it tight, let up set pieces, two games in a row, and then I got benched and I'm not on the bet.

And I'm on the bench today because I wasn't able to pay. Now. It's like coach can produce that communication and I can think of it myself, but either way the answer's there. But if I don't get to that answer because my ego is either on one side or my coaches and communicating that, then we're still never going to find that, find that answer.

So that's, that's one. And then I think the second part of that kind of being on the bench concept. It's just this whole idea when we start not thinking that we're the best, it allows humility and humility. In my opinion, breeds work ethic. Because if I know I'm not good enough, I'm going to go figure it out and get better.

But if I'm always thinking I'm the best in the team, or if I'm always thinking, I don't care what that coach says, he's a, he's a Dick. He doesn't like me not playing [00:45:00] me. Like that's, that's not why I dunno. I landed or playing coach, or why don't you like me? You know, why aren't they like eight? Because a lot of kids don't want to actually ask those questions.

And a lot of coaches don't want to have hard conversations. And so that's for me is, is, is, is where you, where you find that. And I think being that the earning that humility piece is huge to someone to be. And, and, and again, if you can't create it, cause you got to start the kid every week. Cause he is that good.

Find another way to create adversity for that person because they're going to find it and I have to do it eventually. And then how they deal with that is actually how one keeps popping those people in line. Because that's what I was able to do. Like I didn't, I knew what it was like to not get picked.

So if I didn't get picked, I was like, okay, cool. I'm just going to go sit again and wait for my next turn. Cause I know what that's like. It wasn't like, oh my God, I failed. Yeah. Oh my God. I've only been picked by time and I didn't get picked like my date, my life is over because that's what happens a lot now.

And, and you know, I, I hope that we could just make it a little bit more. I wish we could make failure a little more positive too. Right. You know what I mean? Cause everyone. [00:46:00] But why aren't we like that was awesome. We got beat. Now we're going to go work. And then we're going to, I'm going to show you guys that, because of that loss, we're going to go on and beat this team.

That's right. We're not being positive about losing either coaches or like changing at all. And same. We also like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think we need to be a serious of that anymore.

[00:46:16] Phil: That's right. And John wouldn't, I mean, one of the best of the best of the best said that all the time, if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough.

Right. You're not working hard enough. Oh, you're not getting out

[00:46:24] Jay: of comfort zone enough. And I think that's the last piece. It's this, this whole, like, you know, you can talk about players or coaches, like you get in your comfort zone and you start winning a bunch of games and all of a sudden, you know, things start to change.

If you don't change with that. And we were talking about this earlier for you guys today, and you're on your, your high school team. It's like, there's a reason why. Those many games. And then all of a sudden you're like, if we're not all taken accountability for that, your players, you, everybody else and going, why what's going on here?

Is there ways we can go to a macro level is trying to figure out these pieces cause we were here and now we're not, that's an, that's an ego trip on [00:47:00] both sides that go, it needs to be dropped. And now you'll go find your answer. I promise you if those students have

[00:47:05] Phil: absolutely. Absolutely. I saw what I love that you said, just kind of put it into a nutshell is really be a student of the game and have that humble learning posture.

Because when you have that humble learning posture, that's when you'll be able to even be an, and when you have that self-awareness and the confidence and the ability to have that self belief, you can, then you know what you can do, but you need to get. You need to learn from the other people. And when you have that humble learning posture, you will be able to learn from the game, from the people who are a lot of times, they will be better than you.

I mean, as I've said to many people, when they're younger, don't be the best person on the team because that's not going to push you to be better. And I mean, you can work to be the best person on the team, but you know what I mean? So, all right. Three more questions. First of all, rise and shine. Can you just give, you know, people can go check it out and gets rise, rise and shine.

app.com. Is that.

[00:47:53] Jay: Yeah, well, there's, there's a couple, I mean, rise and shine is a, it's a, it's a, it's a program that basically was built off the success of [00:48:00] the, of the documentary. And so rise and shine for me was my new purpose of how do you tell this, share the story, tell a story and, and create curriculums around the story.

And so we're a youth program at its core. So we take, we, we teach, you know, self-belief in a lot of different ways, but we do it through multitudes of mentorship. So I don't just have professional soccer players come up and teach the kids how to play soccer. It's very masterclass like where I bring up an engineer for the day.

EA sports. And we talk about building video games or the chef from the famous restaurant down the road. And we cooked like simple, easy meals that every teenager should know. And I should know that that Roger, China's a teenage program. We're at 12 plus program all the way through to, to university. And but the whole idea of that is like when you mix mentorship and you miss you mix these famous influence type people, you start to realize that it's high-performance mindset that drives all shifts.

It's not, it's not the skillset. We've all done and learn how to do a bunch of things. But in the end we went and w we became professional at something. And whether it's a chef or whether it's an engineer, whether it's a fireman, fire chief or whatever, it doesn't really matter. You'd be you wouldn't be surprised that the fire chief actually has a lot of the [00:49:00] same messages as the EA EA animator.

That has the same message as the head chef. And they've all gone through adversity. They've all had to learn from mentors. They've all had to believe in themselves with nobody believed in them. They've all had to work extra hard when the no one cared about them. And so within that, you know, you create a curriculum that allows for that mindset.

People start to understand that, Hey, they're more relatable to other people than just the coaches. They thought that they knew, but they also start to realize that a multitude of skill set is actually real. And so I think that that's, that's how we start to run our curriculum. I, I create social programs because I believe that when you put kids in front of each other that look different and feel different than they're from different places.

It alone in an ecosystem creates a unique thing. So I raise money through a music festival and events. We run every year that basically takes half of my curriculum. And I go out to the programs locally to deserving kids and find them and I, and they get to come up to the camps for free. And and a lot of times that'll create a unique social experiment anyway.

So I'll have kids from first nations communities that haven't left them [00:50:00] and there'll be come down with a bunch of kids in Nike jackets. And in the end, they'll end up being the best buddies ever, but they've never even been in the same room before because they come from different cultures. And, and so for me, I'm mixed culture which I think is, which is hugely important for development.

And then lastly, I, I give kids. I think that, you know, let's just say five of the curriculum from 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM in a, in a, in a one day or three-day program, you know, we get a lot of hours with those kids and it's long days for them, but like we fill it with all sorts of stuff, like nutrition training to mindset training to, okay, we got an hour to do a beach soccer tournament, or we got you know, all sorts of activities.

We create competitions, we got ax throwing. We got, you know, we're creating like little competitions and wins throughout the curriculums too, that allow kids to understand themselves in a holistic way. But also just every day is different and every day is creative. And, and so that's kind of the last piece of the puzzle is that like letting kids be themselves and then saying, Hey, by the way, we got an hour and a half off, you guys go and do what you want.

You're like, what do, what, [00:51:00] what, what does that even mean? I'm like, I don't know. You figure it out. I don't care. I get an hour and a half and you guys are all here. You all have your phones. I can see you. I'll go do what you want. I don't care. And they're like, whoa, that's cool. And then they bring him with more trust because now they've now that the sports psych shear for the guy comes in for the next two hours or the you know, the, the female animator comes in to talk about art.

They're much more likely to give that person the hour of attention. Cause they haven't just been drummed in all day long where they think they're just listening. And then they're like, oh God, I go pay attention to this now. And I got to go desk now. And it's not that it's, it's not how we give kids disability to open up their ears.

We got to give them what they want in a certain way. And we got to give them freedom. We've got to give them choice and we have to give them this ability to understand themselves safely. And when you get those pillars right then I I'm prom. I promise you because I've seen it for the last seven years, the magic.


[00:51:48] Phil: definitely. All right. And I, you got to go get your son at school. So I'm on this, this, this, this question is what, what lesson learned directly from the game of soccer have [00:52:00] you used in your parenting and in other relationships, but didn't really just focusing on the parenting since, you know, just an honor of you having to go get your son.

But have you used in your parenting? You know, the, the example I always used as the retaliate or gets the red, I use that with my five kids all the time. Like, Hey, you know, the first thing we don't see, the second thing is what we're gonna see and you're gonna get in trouble. So w like that, what, what, what do you use with, with your son?

[00:52:20] Jay: I kind of the same type of curriculum that I'm trying to create for the older kids. It's, it's, you know, letting him understand, like, again, I'm happy to even talk about my kid. He doesn't, he doesn't really want it so far. He's never really wanted to play soccer. He's six. He sees, he sees me, he does all these things and he's.

And he looks at it and he wants to kick with me, but he doesn't want me to coach him. He doesn't want me to tell him what to do. And he doesn't really want to go in a team environment because he's a little bit scared because he thinks that he's going to have to be his dad. And I see it. I even talked to him about it and he's only six.

So we're just starting to get to real conversations. But just having that understanding it's was like, I'm already like, well, what do you mean? You don't want it? But I'm like already catching myself going, no, I'm already trying to prep, [00:53:00] you know, push my life on him and tell him that he has to be something like me because I was that.

And socially, I think that's the first thing we always have to be aware of in developing young people is that we need to understand that they are their own vehicles and it stops there. We are there to help where they're a mentor and we are there to share our experiences so they can adopt them into theirs.

If we're not doing that in a way that's safe and it's in communicating. And it's hard for me sometimes too. I'm like, what do you mean you don't get it? Or when you see you self doing that, you sees what you kick that ball. Like, imagine if you train like that every day, And imagine how good of a player you want to be, because I see the value of the sport, but he's looking at it like I'm, you're trying to tell me what to do.

Right, right. So again, this is some of the battles we already have at six, but I'm sure, you know, your parents out there are suffering from the same battles every day. And so I think it's just the management of that system, the understanding of the kid pushing in a way that they feel like it's support and not another teachable moment that I don't really want to hear.

Right, right, right. You know what I mean? I think [00:54:00] absolutely it is. It's really hard. But at the end of the day, it's communicating that finds those answers. It's like, I liked when we did that or we create a fun competition that makes the kid understand that that competition can be fun and not pressure built, but are we doing it in a safe space or doing it something that's fun or off the field?

Like there's lots of ways. But to your point, a long time ago in this, in this thing, it was just being creative about it and trying new things and, and being innovative about what's working and what's not. And, and that starts with this whole idea of open feedback. And so I think, you know, parents that are out there just keep providing positive support for you.

You know, T trying to take pressure off them because they get enough of it in the real world. You know, I think we're trying to put too much pressure on our kids when all they've done is live in their world every day, feeling pressure. And every moment from the time they wake up, they check their phones.

From the time they get to school there, they're getting peer pressure and teacher pressure, and then they come home and then they're getting parent pressure. And they're like, no wonder why I'm suffering from so much stress and anxiety. You know what I mean? And we wonder why, and they're like, oh, actually when you break it down, that's why it's cause right.

And then we don't have these pressure systems that are [00:55:00] allowing people to fail to your point earlier. Like now we're not, we can't fail. And now we have to be so finite in our abilities that if we fail, we're going to consider ourselves failures and then that's going to create this mental health tornado.

And so I think just finding small wins, keeping positive approaches, understanding feedback, communication, and being creative, I think is the key to how you develop. You know, capable young people. I just say capable because at the end of the day, they're going to do it. You're not, you are there to help and you are there to mentor.

And when you can give a safety net that allows support and positivity, they're going to be able to take the risk. And I say this too many speeches I've given in this world and, you know, acceptance speeches to hall of fames. It's I think my parents, because what my parents allowed me to do was be me and support me.

And they didn't over support me. They let me fail. They let me fall on my face. They, when I needed money, they gave me 200 bucks, not 2000 bucks. You know what I mean? That I had it allow me to figure it out, but they gave me a safe space to do that because I [00:56:00] knew that if I moved to England, And I lived in an attic with a college degree in my, my mom might say, Jay, you got a degree in your pocket.

Are you sure you want to do that? But here's 200 bucks in a backpack, so good luck. That's right. Act enough confidence that I need, that I know it's in my hands. And I know that if I fail, I can still go live in my parents' basement. If I mess up that's right. And I'm going to be loved. And so I think that's that that's as simple as that.

[00:56:22] Phil: Absolutely. And I remember when I left I'm with law firm, after getting a lot degree to go work and run a non-profit, my mom said, why are you wasting your degree? But I also knew that she loved me and she was going to support me, even if she asked that question. And so there is that that give and take is apparent.

Right. So, all right. So, what have you read, watched or listened to that has informed your thinking on how soccer explains life and leadership.

[00:56:45] Jay: I mean, I like to, I like to just share other people's stories. I actually, I interviewed Tim Howard this morning on a, on a podcast. I'm doing for Watford right now about Americans that have played in the premier league.

And I just, I really try to listen to people's stories. People's stories inspire me every day from CEOs of that. [00:57:00] I'm trying to run a business to, you know, my parents about how they raised me and how I was able to do what I did and how I can teach it to my kid. And, you know, instead of, you know, that's just information, but I have got to ask those questions and create those relationships.

And I think that for me is it's look for other people's stories, hear other people's stories, specifically seek out other people's stories that have to do with your story and where you want to go with your story or things that may have already happened in your story. And I think that's one of the, one of the major things that.

[00:57:27] Phil: Absolutely. Well, you just mentioned Tim Howard, my son just finished his book as well. So that was a, that was a fun, fun, good book for a great story. He's got as well. So, all right, well, thanks so much, Jay. I appreciate what you're doing. Appreciate who you are. And you know, your stories is one of the great ones of American soccer and, and global football.

So thanks for, for being a part of the show and just sharing what you've been learning over over the decades of.

[00:57:49] Jay: That one of my pleasure. And I promise you it's a privilege every time. And, you know, I, if I can be an example for people that have have gone in and figured it out and done things that are much [00:58:00] bigger than either everyone else thought, you know, I could be an example for people that can believe in that too.

And if I can be a vehicle for that belief system, if I can be someone that can bounce ideas off, because I know what it's like to be at the bottom of the, of the ladder that's what I'm here to do. And so it's, it's been a pleasure to come on to the podcast, Phillip, and happy to come on any other time and, and, and, and chop it up.

And cause again, that's what

[00:58:20] Phil: this stuff is. Fantastic. And I, hopefully we will get you on again and folks out there. Thanks again for being a part of this show. And if again, coaching the bigger Dick game.com is where you can find information about coach and the bigger game program warrior way program for Paul and Marci Jobson.

If you want to learn more about that Jobson soccer.com and fill out how soccer explains leadership.com. If you want to get in touch with me about anything, continue the conversation here would love to do that with you. So as always, I hope that you're taking everything that you're learning from this show, and you're using it to be a better leader, a better spouse, a better parent, and that [00:59:00] you're continually reminding yourself that soccer does explain life and leadership.

Thanks a lot. Have a great week.