Feb. 3, 2022

Season 5 Halftime Show – How Ted Lasso Explains Leadership, Part 5

Season 5 Halftime Show – How Ted Lasso Explains Leadership, Part 5

In Episode 67, Paul and Phil discuss the recent USC Convention, a preview of the second half of Season 5, a recap of the first half of the season, and the leadership lesson we can learn from Episodes 9 & 10 of Ted Lasso. Specifically, we discuss: ...

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In Episode 67, Paul and Phil discuss the recent USC Convention, a preview of the second half of Season 5, a recap of the first half of the season, and the leadership lesson we can learn from Episodes 9 & 10 of Ted Lasso. Specifically, we discuss:

  • What Paul and Phil took away from the recently-held United Soccer Coaches Convention in KC, and some new things Paul is working on (1:56)
  • What’s to come in the second half of Season 5 (11:04)
  • Lessons Paul and Phil gleaned from our conversations with Cheryl McCormick, Tony Everett, Robbie Handy, and Aaron Locks (14:00)
  • Leadership lessons from Episodes 9 & 10 of Ted Lasso relating to identity, personality styles, the both/and of winning and maintaining healthy culture, the shadow side of our weaknesses, and how little things can make massive impact in our players’ lives (30:00)

Resources and Links from this Episode


Phil: Welcome back to the How Soccer Explains Leadership podcast. We are now at halftime, a season five, and we got a pretty cool little halftime show for you today. First of all, I get my brother Paul, back of the studio. It's our virtual studio that we get to have here back together.

Paul, how you doing, man?.

[00:00:21] Paul: I'm doing well, man, it's going to be back together online, got to spend some time together in person, which is unusual for us back with the United soccer coaches convention. And we'll talk a little bit about that, but that was cool to spend just some, some face-to-face time as opposed to this online version of, of each other.

But this is always fun to get back on the podcast.

[00:00:40] Phil: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm kind of sick of saying, you know, Paul's wishes he could be here cause you know, I wish you could be there too. this is always, always cool. And, and so that is one of the things we're gonna talk about today.

We're gonna, we're gonna talk about the United soccer coaches convention, which was a great few days for me, and I know for you as well. So we're going to get into that a little bit. We're gonna [00:01:00] just do a quick rundown of the episodes that we had in the first half of this season. And we're going to finish up our conversation.

Of Ted lasso season one, we took a little break from that in that season for post-match show. If you remember that conversation was our exclusive interview with Paul about his decision to step down from Baylor soccer. And since then Michele Lenard has been named that a new head coach there. And we, we put up that interview with Michelle just to remind you about her.

So, so we got, we got a lot of stuff going on and since the end of season four, So why don't you just Paul, just share a little bit about The United soccer coaches convention and, and what was it for you, man? I mean, I, I can speak for myself in a few minutes, but what'd you think of it?

[00:01:46] Paul: Yeah, I mean, for me, it was a little bit different this year. You know, if I've gone in the past as a, as a college soccer coach and the convention itself. lends itself to the coaches of every level. There's something there for everybody. And you could always go in and, and grab something.

Obviously if you're [00:02:00] open-minded, which if you weren't, you wouldn't go to the convention to begin with, but right. I'm probably not the most beneficial from a college coach perspective. There's more, I guess I'll say it this way. There's more there for the club side and some of the other things.

So me going in, not as a college coach this time gave me a different perspective on the convention and I'm a huge fan of the convention. I've been a member of United soccer coaches. I don't even know how many years now, but a big proponent of the convention, but see that have different perspective this year.

And for me a little bit more networking than normal and learning more about a lot of other things that are going on within the game, just because my perspective is open a little bit more, not as narrow as it has been over the last 20 years as being a college soccer coach. So saw it a different light and it was great.

Really enjoyed it. Enjoy it, obviously our time together to network and connect as well. But always a great time. Always, always pick up things from the convention that can be used from a coaching perspective or a leadership perspective. And you know, always run into people that, you talk to a lot, but don't see very often.

So putting some faces together and but all in all, just a great a [00:03:00] great time and you come back kind of rejuvenate and excited about kind of

[00:03:03] Phil: what. Yeah, absolutely. And, and you're working on something as well that you, you share a little bit, I don't know if you're wanting to share that here a little bit about the next one of the next steps that that you're wanting to do.

And you're able to share that with some people out there. If you want to share that, now I'd love to have you kind of just share a little bit with the coaches out there and the different people out there. What, what what you're wanting to be doing on the consulting.

[00:03:26] Paul: Yeah. You know, we're, we're excited reaching out to and have been reached out from some, some clubs around the country just about

using our experiences from college coaching of the last 20 years to kind of give a different perspective and, and help some, some clubs navigate what's best for their players, as they're trying to prepare for the college game, you know, whether that's helping them navigate the recruiting process or just being physically and mentally ready for the college game as best they can.

So I really just kind of opened up our resources to some clubs to say, Hey, we're available. We'd love to help. However we can. And it's not, there's no cookie cutter [00:04:00] program that we've put together because every club is different. Every player has different needs. Every coach has different needs and just kind of open up ourselves as resources to, to some clubs out there that that are willing to, work with us.

So we're excited about that. We've seen some, some great traction on. And it started before the convention and then gain some more traction during the convention as well. So, it's been, it's been fun to see that that kind of grow and it's always fun to, to share experiences that you've had to help grow the game and help younger players and younger coaches along.

[00:04:27] Phil: Yeah. So, I mean, and I I'd agree with you as far as the need for that. There's a lot of, I mean, talk about misinformation all the time, right. In different settings, but there's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of things that are going on right there, out there that We need folks like you who have, been on that side of it and to be able to speak truth into that.

And just your, your vast knowledge of the game as well. And your wife playing at the national team level, you plan in college as well. I mean, those are, those are things that are those, those kind of those intangibles that you bring to the table [00:05:00] that I think if you're interested in that you can just reach out to jobsonsoccer.com, right?

Because that, where they can learn more about that,

[00:05:06] Paul: they can go to jobsonsoccer.com or they can email me right now, pajobson@gmail.com. And I think also just the resources we have to at our disposal, you know, it's, it's a difficult. Conversation between club, coach, and college coach. You know, every college coach wants to be helpful, but they're obviously some compliance restrictions with the NCAA of how you can work with different players.

There's fear of allegiances with clubs that keep you from being able to maybe work with other clubs. But now that I'm out of the game, I have no allegiance to anybody really, other than the. Who, who might be able to benefit most from, from our experience. So, kind of a connection piece, I think even between clubs and, and the college coach resources that are out there at my disposal as well.

So yeah. Jobsonsoccer.com right now is the website. Eventually that's going to transition into warriorwaysoccer.com, but we're probably a couple of weeks away from revealing that, but Jobsonsoccer.com. They can, they can reach out to us.

[00:05:59] Phil: And they've revealed it [00:06:00] to the whole world, Paul. So the whole world that's revealed there, it's out.

So, and just to be clear, you still have allegiances to, to Marcy and your kids and, and to, to God and some other people, but

[00:06:12] Paul: we're just talking. I just want to clarify. COVID college

[00:06:15] Phil: allegiance. Yeah. I just want to make sure people knew he didn't just fly off the reservation after the day or they just weren't like, you know, running naked through the streets and stuff, you know?

So yeah. Yeah. That yeah, we, we won't, we won't go there. Sorry for the visual folks. I. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't even mean to say that, but, you know, that happens folks that happens to you and you don't know what you're going to get. Cause we aren't scripted. We just throw this stuff out there and it happens, but Hey yeah, I just, I agree, like I said, with the conference, a great place, I, one of the things I loved is just being able to meet people that I'd only met on zoom.

Like some of the guests from the show, some of the people that we were, we were able to meet on clubhouse. Some of the folks that I've just been able to connect with. Over the kind of COVID lockdowns and all these other things, not being able to do the convention last year. [00:07:00] It was my first convention, which was pretty.

I just enjoyed meeting you. I just love meeting people, connecting, connecting others, people to different people. I was able to connect you with some people, which is kind of funny given the fact that you've been in this a lot longer than I have. You obviously connected me with people too, which I absolutely love.

And then we were just able to, you know, you just, you just sit in a bar and hang out and, and people come and you meet people and at the different meetings, and we went to the faith based advocacy meeting and met some great folks there. And, and just seeing the. Things that are going on. These initiatives, these people that are, that are innovative going through the exhibit hall and seeing, yeah, there's a lot of gimmicks.

There's a lot of things there, but there's a lot of really cool innovations going on. And, and you and I were able to have a great conversation on Don Williams podcast, this, or, you know, I SRUSA, their podcast, Inside College Soccer. And and with Christian DeVries who, you know, we were able to Christian and I were able to talk about our coaching, the bigger game program with a lot of people there as well.[00:08:00]

Again, coachingthebiggergame.com if you want more information about that, love to talk with you about, you know, it's really just helping you, if you're a coach or if you know coaches out there who really Learn a lot more and be able to be a lot better on the people's side of the game.

it's funny. I just saw the clip and we're going to talk about Ted lasso later in the show, but I guess the United soccer coaches gave the believer award. They said it's the first and probably only believe award. And they gave it to, to Brett Goldstein who AKA Roy Kent. And it was funny where he was talking about how, you know, he loves being able to coach and.

Curse at the kids and he doesn't know how other coaches could do it without using profanity, but it was, you know, it was pretty funny, obviously it was in jest, but one of the things he did say is he said, you know, the stuff that you're teaching these kids on the P on the, he didn't say the people's side, but that's effectively what he was talking about is much more important than the tactics.

And I agree with that, you know, in the big picture,[00:09:00] 1% in are going to go and play, or maybe like a 7% we'll go play somewhere in college. The other 93% men, this is just life lessons. That's why we're doing this show. That's why we talk about what we talk about here. And so I saw a lot of people talking about that.

I mean, I heard a lot of people talking at the, at the convention about that. So I encourage you if you are a coach and you haven't been. You know, think about going, I mean, it's, it's an investment. Yeah. It's time. It's money. It's all that. But, but I think some of the, the meat, the conversations you get to have with people, they're not only encouraging.

I think they'll give you things to be able to take back to wherever you're coaching and really be able to pour into your, your kids, whatever age kids, college, high school youth even pro coaches we all, we all have stuff to learn. So it's that learning humble posture. If you have that, it'd be like a kid in the candy store there.

So, any last thoughts on that before we move on?

[00:09:55] Paul: Nope. I just, I would also say the same. I just encourage you if you're. If you're a coach, [00:10:00] I would join United soccer coaches. There's a lot of great resources and benefits out there. One of them being the convention as well. And yeah, like you said, it just being connected to other coaches is important.

It's encouraging. But I, I agree with you, you know, it was interesting how many folks were talking about the people side of things, you know, that I think, I think we're starting to tilt back that way. I think we're starting to see the, the importance of. Growing the game, the right way is going to be done through treating people the right way.

And the program that you guys are putting together and have put together for coaches and whatnot is going to be really important piece of that. And you, I think you got a lot of great response for the folks you were talking to about that, about that program too. So that was encouraging and definitely would encourage folks to get on board with that, to get on board with United soccer.

They're not paying us for that advertise me either, by the way.

[00:10:46] Phil: I don't, I don't think so. I might reach out to them after the fact and see what, see what we can do. But I,

[00:10:52] Paul: I just think position on podcast road next year and

[00:10:54] Phil: maybe, maybe, yeah, there's, there's clearly not a paid advertisement. It was just [00:11:00] something that we, you know, we liked to what they did.

It was, it was good stuff. So, All right. So let's, let's go to, well, first of all, I just want to give a little sneak preview into the, because one of the, one of the guests that I just interviewed, actually I interviewed him yesterday was, was one of the people talking about the people side of the game as Jay Demerit it's an amazing story.

Documentary rise and shine. I strongly recommended it all for all ages. You could watch it with your kids. I watched it with my 10 year old. Inspired by it. He actually little, little teaser. He he asked a couple of questions not actually asked them, but he told me some questions. He wanted to ask Jay after watching that documentary.

So I worked those into the interview, so that was kind of fun. But but he talked about self leadership. Next, the next half of this season five, we have a couple interviews I've already done. We have a couple of, I'm not going to say because I'm not sure if we're going to get them, but David Ricca, who is a 9/11 survivor.

He, he used basically had PTSD and you soccer to help him through the trauma. And so it's just that amazing story. Just that [00:12:00] one, it blew me away. And then Jay Demerit, great conversation with him as well. His story is, is one of a kind But a story that can inspire other stories that will be like, it, it won't be the same story, but other stories like it for people to, to, you know, push through that adversity.

And so I encourage you to listen to those and also listening. If you haven't already the the great conversations we were able to have in the first half of this season before the season started, if you haven't listened to the 20 memorable moments of 20, 21, I encourage you to do so, because that's a great little, as I say, a sampler platter, that is something you can give to your friends who don't know about the show.

And that you're like, Hey, this is helping me. Here's just something to check out little clips, three, four minute clips. Some are one minute clips from last year. Just the highlights. I say highlights. I mean, there's so many highlights. These are, these were [00:13:00] some of the moments that, that we chose of the so many that we could have chosen.

And so go check that out. And then Paul, Paula, I'm going to come to you right now, cause I've talked for too long in this little, that a little blurb, but what were some of the highlights for you in the first half of season five.

[00:13:17] Paul: Well, yeah, just to piggyback on what, what you're saying, I'm looking forward to it.

This was a great great half the season, obviously with the interviews you did. And I would highly encourage that the 20 moments as well, that, that came together really well, Phil and I think it is a great opportunity to put that in front of other people say, Hey, this is kind of what they're doing.

And even just some great reminders of some, some top moments through. Through the year, but the Jay Demerit story, that's going to be amazing. I'm sure they interview was going to turn out really, really well. A great story. Just a great. Great motivational story for sure from him. So I'm looking forward to hearing that it's very, a little teaser for next season, but these last four episodes were really good, you know, going back to the very beginning, with Cheryl McCormick.

I thought that was a really good interview. I've, I'm always kind of, interested in, in, in the [00:14:00]lifelong I call them career students, you know, I think she's a career student she's always learning and Chris, we're all always learning, but she's doing it at a, a more intense level of the different things that she's involved in and creating a craft around how to hone all these things together that to help people through things.

So I'm always interested in that and interested to see kind of where, where she ends up with all of that she wants to, wants to teach and wants to do things like that as well. So I'm excited to see where she's going to do that. And I will always inspired as well. Cause you know, she's, she's a wife and a mom and homeschools and navigates, you know, those that, that hits home with our household as well.

So I love hearing stories like that and things that they're doing and navigating, because I think there's too many people out there that feel like, Hey, I just don't have time. Now you just don't have, you know, you just haven't prioritized your time very well. I don't think you guys talk about that in the interview.

That's something that kind of hit me. I'm like, cause she's doing all of this going to school, teaching people, consulting people raising her boys. I think that she has two boys or something like that. And a husband who's gone quite a bit because he serves in our military, but I thought that was a great start to.

To the season or, Hey,

[00:14:59] Phil: I'm going to interrupt you [00:15:00] for a sec because right there is why you need to be on these interviews because that, that would have been a great question. I didn't ask that question. And now it's, it's something that I everyone's going to be bummed, and they're going to think of you

[00:15:11] Paul: can't ask all the questions.

I mean, come on, like maybe you wouldn't have been able to ask the cheerleading question as a tease, if you haven't heard the episode go back and listen, testing question. That was great. Great. It creates some great discussion on that, but, but yeah, so, I enjoyed that a lot with her, just to, just to, just to start start there.


[00:15:26] Phil: yeah, so I, that one, one of the things that's going to behind the scenes, this, this half of, of the, of season five had a couple of the people that we met on Clubhouse. So we've talked about kind of revamp in the clubhouse conversations that we were having before. But the Aaron Locks who was the fourth interview and Cheryl were both clubhouse connections, which is kind of fun, you know?

Right. Again, those are two, two people that I've never met in person. I feel like they're friends now because we've, we've [00:16:00] connected, obviously not the same as you and me. Right? I mean, that's, that's a whole different level. Cause we've, we've connected and been able to do life together more, but, but to be able to do that, and then, you know, hopefully we will be able to meet somebody in person, but it was, it was kind of fun to have those connections.

But Cheryl, I agree with you. I mean, that was, it's just, it, it comes from a different side, right? I mean, she's not, never, never played soccer, but. Yeah, but she's thinking about these issues at deep levels and really, you know, the mental health side cracks me up and she's, she doesn't lack for confidence either.

That's for sure, man. I mean, she's coming in and saying, you know, I know what I know, and I want to help you with it. And, and I love that because so many people are like, no, I don't have the ability. I don't, I don't know much. I'm just, and it's not a false humility of some people. I just think some people just are not confident in, in who they are and the gifts they've been given and the abilities they have. And, and I always talk about, you know, the fact that we're, we're made for [00:17:00] greatness and we have great works that we were created for created to do. And if we don't do them, then no one will do them. And, and so we need to. To understand that we are made uniquely for certain things.

And that was what, I mean, she didn't say that per se, but that came out of it for me, where, where she's, she's got these things to give and she's, she's getting again and going back to innovation, she's being innovative in how to deliver them and it's working and it's helping people, which is, which is something that I think is a great lesson for all of us.

So I

[00:17:35] Paul: leaned into the. Her kind of coaching coaches, you know, I thought that was important. And you know, there, there are a lot of programs out there for health and wellness for the student athlete or for the athletes. But there, you know, some of the things that you guys are creating to help coaches as important, it's, it's a missing piece.

So I enjoyed, you know, some of the talks and conversations that she had about how she's helping coaches, she's coaching coaches. And again, it's not about [00:18:00] sport, right? It's just about how you taking care of yourself and, creating health and wellness programs for these coaches because, you know, Marcy and I talk about it quite a bit, if you're a coach and you're a coach who pushes fitness, and you're not fit as a coach.

It's hard as a player to look at you and go, why, why are you telling me to get fit? Even though I'm not competing as a coach? I think there's some, some credibility there. And I think the same thing from a, from a mental perspective, you know, being a mentally healthy coach is the best way to help your players to be mentally healthy.

So she hit on some, some of those things that were kind of hot buttons for me as a, a former college coach, where I think we're missing some opportunities to help help coaches in some of those areas.

[00:18:39] Phil: Yeah, we definitely, I mean, I think we, we make assumptions and you know what happens when you assume, but that coaches are, are healthy just because of the coach.

I don't know why we make those assumptions, but we assume that, and I would say when Patrick Lencioni was interviewed about how many organizations in the country are healthy and he said about 15% maybe. [00:19:00] And I'd probably say that's probably unfortunately close to the amount of coaches who are healthy mentally.

Physically emotionally, because it's a brutal job as you know, right. I mean, it's a lot of time energy. You're continually thinking about it. I know with high school where we're not recruiting, we're not on the road, we're not doing these things. I'm thinking about it all the time. Like how. Get these girls to do this.

How can we, you know, and I'm, I'm not even the one doing the practice plans and all that. And I, but I'm constantly thinking about how, you know, what's wrong with her. What's, you know, what's going on. What's, what's what's going on underneath the surface. Cause again, even with the people's side, if I'm not healthy myself, there's no way I can enter into that.

You know, there's no way I can enter that. So that was really cool. We could talk for another hour about that, but let's, let's move on to tone. The one thing that stuck out to me and it's why I put it on the clip that we released, but is that just that idea of walking soccer and, and just the, the, again, innovate I love, if you can't figure it out, I [00:20:00] love innovation.

That's kind of the theme for this one, I guess, is it's this idea of innovation and being able to take these concepts and say, okay, here's a lesson I want to teach. Which is what we do on the show. Right? How can the, how can the game teaches lessons, but he's taken it one step further and saying, all right, let's kind of tweak the game a little bit to teach some lessons.

And so what'd you think about Tony and that, or other things from that interview that stuck out to you?

[00:20:20] Paul: Yeah, no, the walking soccer thing was really, really cool. And I had, I've seen that before, but had totally forgotten about it, you know? And that's the great thing about these interviews and even the convention, or just reconnecting with coaches, you know, sometimes as a coach, you've forgotten more than.

Th some people know about the game sometimes, but I think that walking soccer thing and how he utilizes that I'm thinking about even my own kids, you know, that's something that I forgotten years ago, but even with my own kids, as we're, you know, working with younger kids of my own children, that self-control, you know, aspect of things and incorporating that into the game was great.

Now I'm listening to it and remember. That, that drill or whatever you want to call it, realizing [00:21:00] how frustrating it is as a coach to implement walk my soccer. Right. You know, but it's such a, it can be such a beneficial thing if you've got the patients to, to, to, you know, no pun intended to walk through it.

It can be, it can be frustrating, but it can be very rewarding. And that stood out to me for sure. And I just really liked. His approach to, to the game, you know, it just seems very calm about things and just has a great approach to, to people. Right. And seems to really handle that really well to where the, the constantly, sometimes as coaches, we can get our idea of what we're trying to accomplish and get in the way of actually doing the things that we need to do to get.

And I think he seems to have that, that kind of figured out a bit, I would say. Yeah, not let that get in the way.

[00:21:42] Phil: Absolutely. So go check that one out for sure. And then, so Tony's a guy who's taken what he's learned from the game and using it with Pure Game nonprofit to be able to help vulnerable youth in orange county and in also is, is now a life coach as well.

And Robbie Handy. The next guy that, that we had it in the third [00:22:00] interview, he was a William Jessup university. Yuba College coach, head coach there and, and he just decided, I, I want to go help others. And he's now a health and wellness coach. And so, I mean, there's this kind of the theme for this half, it was kind of unintentional, but we have this, these people who are using the sports, I mean, a lot, like again, what we're talking about on this show, in their different coaching that they're doing of others in different ways.

And so, Robbie was a guy that, that I. Again, on, on Facebook, we happen to coach at the same school at different times, which is kinda cool boy, but I love the conversation. Just, it seems, it seems like, you know, if we lived down the street from each other, we'd be good buds. And beyond that, he's a guy that I think has a lot to offer.

and I know in that interview was really, you know, it's called. Winning with character and that's really just was, was the theme throughout how we can go about doing that. And I know a couple people have actually reached out saying, how do you do it? How do you have it be a both end and not an either or, and [00:23:00] so, anyway, what what'd you think of that interview and just any, anything that stood out to you in that in that conversation?

[00:23:06] Paul: Yeah, selfishly, you know, I enjoyed it just because, you know, he kinda went through his transition of having. a college coach and the coaches, some different schools and had some different experiences and felt, he and his wife felt like God we're pushing them in a different direction.

So that hit home with me. Right. Cause that's kinda what, I've just been a little familiar. Yeah. There's a little familiar. So I was encouraged by that and I, and I hope that this podcast can be that, that every episode is going to hit somebody a little bit differently. a cookie cutter thing that every episode is going to be the end, all be all for everybody, but hopefully different episodes.

We're going to hit different people. And this one, this one hit me for sure. Just his experience and how you know, they really just trusted, you know, what they felt like God was leading them to do. And you know, at times stood out. Of comfort zones and people thinking that they were crazy to do certain things or whatever, I'm sure to take them even out to, to, to Nashville, right.

Moving, leaving home. And I don't think that's what we're doing, but you [00:24:00] know, a big step of faith to even, you know, pick up and move and, and so that was, that was encouraging from my standpoint. But I think it also shows the lessons that you can learn through that through the game whether you're a player or coach, how it really does transcend, I've talked to a lot of coaches just in my transition.

They were like, man, I'm, I'm considering a move. I'm just not sure that I could do anything else. And I think that this is an episode that doesn't talk specifically in this detail, but as a coach, you form a lot of Experiences and you handle a lot of things that translate really well into other avenues.

So not saying everybody needs to jump out of coaching. I think a lot of people need to stay in coaching. Cause it's, it's, it's good for the kids, but that should never be a resistance. And I think he kind of proves that a bit and that he's a very versatile person and is still developing people and helping people as he was as a college coach.

And I thought that was pretty.

[00:24:54] Phil: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And he's the real deal. I mean, that's the thing about these folks is they're not just saying a bunch of [00:25:00] stuff on a podcast. Like they're living it out. If you go, you know what, look at their social media stuff, if you go. And obviously social media is, self-selected what they put on there.

But, but you know, th the conversations are may well have behind the scenes here, they, these, these folks are living out what they're talking about, which is, which is great. And yeah, I didn't even think about that. I should definitely, you need to connect with. You guys can probably encourage each other on many levels.

So the last one, Aaron locks is the dude. Who's fun guy. I mean, man, he, I love talking with him cause I learned more and more about his background and who he has been able to work with over the years. And you know, he just throws out names like they're, they're just, you know, Hey, it's bill down the street and, but it's actually pat Riley or, you know, John wooden who he worked with for, for a decade or so and, or Bernie Bickerstaff or.

These other guys who are, you know, some of the big time basket, he's obviously a basketball guy at this core, but he has a national academy athletics now, which, [00:26:00] which is basically, you know, what Diego Bocanegra and I talked about really kind of giving youth soccer, given soccer, given youth sports back to the kids and, and really the coaches are college students in the, and you know, we're able to create these environments where, where the kids can get out and just play.

Again, you know, talk to each play is, is what is his curriculum is for these coaches that they train up. And so it's really, it's almost like back to the, you know, boys and girls club and the YMCA and, you know, going back to this, like, Hey, how can we teach these things through sport? And, you know, obviously like-minded with us on, on how we can do these and what are the, what are the real lessons?

And I know you've had some conversations with Aaron on clubhouse as well, and he's just a guy with a well, you know, I talked with him as I did with Cori Close cause anybody who was like, be able to be mentored at any level by John wooden. I want to, I feel like that that's how we keep the legacy going.

You know, tonight my, my daughters and I are going to. A [00:27:00] survivor of the Holocaust talk here in here in Folsom. And it's a, it's a second one that they're doing. And every single time, those people who have survived the Holocaust, when I've heard any of them interviewed, they say, Keep telling our story, because if you don't, then it's going to fade away and it will be forgotten and we might repeat it.

And I, and I think that that is obviously a you know, a completely different issue, completely different. I'm not comparing the two at all. No, but the idea of these people who were really kind of just, they, they, they blazed the trail. We can learn so much from, and John wooden is one of those guys.

And, and I, I think we need to keep telling his story because the way he did it, he did win with character, right. To go from that, that, that Robbie handy episode title, like, and how did he do it? He did it because he focused on the character, not the winning. All [00:28:00] right. Aaron talks about a lot of that stuff. So I don't know.

[00:28:03] Paul: Yeah. You took, you took the words out of my mouth when it comes to, you know, anyone who is a student of wooden, you know, who firsthand? Cause I mean, Wouldn't books out the wazoo books that, you know, talk about him and his philosophies. And I've learned a ton from those who are sharing his story. And I think that is important because you want to learn from from the best.

And so anytime you can listen to somebody who's spoken directly with him, it just. Verifies what you're reading, you know, sometimes I think it, the further you get away from somebody's life, you, you wonder is what I'm reading actually. True. It sounds too good to be true, you know? But when you can get, people who have sat with and talked to and, and lived with these, these, these great mentors it, it justifies things a little bit.

And not that you always need that, but it is helpful. But anybody like that, they can, can get firsthand. Knowledge of, of wooden or any of these great coaches is, is fantastic. So I enjoyed that connection with [00:29:00] him and, and just, it's amazing how small the this world is of, of connectivity.

You know, just, even in the convention, people you run into or people you start to talk to, like, you know, like Aaron, you said, he's just throwing names around like, oh yeah, so-and-so down the street. But you know, it's ends up being somebody that we all would love to sit down and have a cup of coffee. But I guess what's, what's great about these, these podcasts and these environments.

I continue to talk about, you know, different folks in their legacies and you know, just to reiterate too, I think it's important that we're learning from, you know, this is how soccer explains leadership, but I think it is important that we're learning from other sports and other people that, you know, I'm a, I'm a big fan of Dan Gable know a great wrestling coach.

I've learned a ton from, from that environment. So I think that the. Yeah, let's not put off as soccer coaches that we can't learn from these other, other sports. I think there's some great, great stuff.

[00:29:51] Phil: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So speaking a wooden pyramid of success, pyramid success is on the wall of [00:30:00] a certain soccer coach on television, Ted lasso, which we're going to now transition.

How'd you like that? Segue pop. Was that pretty good? All right. So, so we will transition again, episodes nine and 10. We're gonna, we're gonna not quite do the treatment that we've done in the past, because as you look, and if you're looking at the, the timestamp on your on your podcast right now, and you're like, all right, you guys are half hour in.

Are you going to go for two hours? We are not, we're going to just kind of re run through these episodes a little quicker, but point out a few things from these episodes that that I thought were, were pretty poignant. And so episode nine was really the kind of Roy Kent transition episode. And really, I th I looked at it as the, the identity, his idea.

Was was really being formed in a way that interestingly hadn't been formed over, over his career, presumably because he never saw himself as anything other than a soccer player [00:31:00] or football player, obviously since it's England. So, you know, it started out, The ice bath and he's sitting there and Ted comes in and he says, he says, you beating yourself up is like Woody Allen playing the clarinet clarinet because it, Roy had had a, a stretch of bad games and kinda knew he was at the end.

It was, it was coming toward the end. And, and, and, but Ted said, it's like Ted Woody, Woody Allen playing the clarinet. I don't want to hear it, knock it off, go easy on yourself. And then, and then Ted walked out saying, Hey, I got your back. Ain't nothing going to change that. And. It was, it was the start of this conversation that I sought, you know, Ted and, and Keeley actually.

And, and Roy's niece were part of this, helping him understand that it's about more than just how you're playing on that field. It's just that you're a lot more than that. And and so as they go through the episode, they do different things. But at the, at the end I don't know if you remember, but.

[00:32:00] Keeley basically said it, you know, something along the lines of it's just game. He says more than a game to me. Roy did. It's who I am. It's all I am. And that's when Keely turned to, to Phoebe is Roy's niece and said, Hey, he a Phoebe. What's your, what is your who's your, who's your uncle or whatever. And she said a bunch of things, and none of them were a football player.

What do you love about them? You know, didn't even mention the game. And so I think that's important for all of us, right? This idea of identity, who we are. if it's just a soccer player then, and that's what you really think, then you're missing everything. It's just a soccer coach and you're missing.

The point really? I believe. Right. So, yeah, so that was something that I thought was very I think it hit pretty hard, really hard in this episode and episode 10 as well. Cause obviously in that episode, he, he hurt his knee and he saw that it was the end and, and that's something that, I mean, you obviously.[00:33:00]

Walked away from the head coach job. Right? A lot of people walk away from the game and at some point everyone will walk away from the game. So how do we instill in our players who obviously are soccer players and that is a part of their life and that it is about so much more than that. And it has to be about so much more than that, or it will end in, some sort of breakdown.


[00:33:29] Paul: Yeah. I mean, we've talked about on this show quite a bit, that identity piece. And I think in this show we've watched Roy, I think we've seen this comment, right? Like from the beginning of Roy's the older player that at the beginning, it's kind of shepherding the young, not really shepherding the younger player, but he sees himself in that younger player, how he was.

And that I think as I'm watching the show, I'm like, okay, this is going to come to a head at some point, you know, he's at the end of his career. He's hard on himself. He doesn't really open himself up to, to anybody else. There's an identity crisis coming. And you just kind of see that developing out through, [00:34:00] through the show.

But I think as, as coaches, especially our younger, you know, younger coaches or young coaching, younger players, it happens at all levels. But I think, you know, we've got to do our best, not to allow that to happen to where everything that we talk about with our kids is their athletic success. You know, w what are the, what are the things about the young people in your house, even that, you know, are great traits and attributes that we can praise them about other than just like how they, how they played or how they did in practice or how their game is going, or you got to do better.

If you're going to go to college, you've got to, you know, I just, we get so wrapped up in that, that. When that's over for that kid, whenever it is, you know, and then, like you said, it comes to an end at some point it could be pretty tragic or not being able to let it go when they need to, because they don't know anything else, you know, kinda mentioned about coaching.

I don't know what else, what else would be able to do? You know, I hear that conversation a lot from coaches, but you hear from players too. I've sat with plenty of meetings of players. Like I, I think I'm dumb, but I just don't know what else I'm gonna do. You know, and I think that that's just [00:35:00] a years of just being beaten into their head.

That that's all they're really about. I've always said that I'm a guy that coaches soccer, you know, and, and now, now not, you know, which is an easier transition that, Hey, I'm a, I'm a soccer coach. That's all that I am, you know? And I think we've got to change that perspective for people. And I think, or two ended up like Roy, where it hits pretty hard.

Yeah. You know? But fortunately for him, he's got people around him that care about him. He can help them transition. And I think that's another piece that not to lose sight of as you may be the person on the other side that needs to be able to, to help somebody find, you know, what they're truly about.

[00:35:35] Phil: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, all of these things are things we could talk about for hours, but I think that's a good place to leave that one. And you don't know which side of that crisis you're going to be on. So be prepared to be on both. I think is very, very good, good word. There were a couple of things on the disc side of things, and we haven't talked about disc for awhile.

So I just wanted to bring it back up. One of the things I love that he said in the press conference, you said, if you're an introvert, raise your hand, you've got the next question. And all of them [00:36:00]raised their hand. He said, ah, that was a trick question. If you were an introvert, you would have been quiet as a field mouse.

And I love that because that is a good, I mean, if, if, if you're asking for hands to be raised, I mean, I use this story all the time when I was In Uganda. And we were doing a training and I asked the question in the room and I knew who was, who were outgoing and who were reserved. And I said, who works with orphaned and vulnerable kids?

And, and no, like only, only the people who were outgoing, raised their hand and everyone in the room did. And I was laughing. I'm just like, okay, people, this is a good example of the fact that you got to show you, you know, you gotta put yourself out there. So that was one. But the other was when Ted needed to.

Bench Roy. I mean, it was, it was pretty clear. He just wasn't up to snuff and, and he didn't want to, and that is something that Ted clearly, as a high I personality, he's outgoing people focused on that relationship to him is really, really important. And he did not want to ruin the relationship with Roy that he knew would be, [00:37:00] Hurt if he benched him. And so, you know, if you watch the episode, he was just, he was, you could tell it was this internal tension of heat. He knew it was the right thing to do, but he, he said it would ruin him. It would, it would, it would crush him and I need to worry about the player. Then he said to, to, to beer.

And this is what I want to talk about. Not so much that the disc stuff, but the, the, when he sit at the bar with beard and he says, it's not, it's not all about winning. That's not how we measure success. Is it? And beard brought the reality that it does have to be a both. And at that time, Right. That that jobs were at stake that people's lives were at stake.

That if they get relegated, it's, it's, it's completely different in the livelihoods of these people and, and the, and the town and everyone in may, the bartender was like, I can't say exactly what she said, but she said, absolutely you're right. You know, cause beard right. May. And she says, absolutely. And, and you could tell it, and he basically said to Ted you're being selfish [00:38:00] again because he didn't want to bench.

Hmm. And, and that's something to remember that if we go too far on the people side, then we are being selfish as a coach. Because if we are that, if we're that all relationship, and I have to remember that sometimes as a boss, I have to remember that sometimes the right thing to do is fire someone. And everything in my being does not want to fire them.

Cause I'm thinking about there. I, I could totally feel for Ted because I had had to do this at 1.1 of the guys, like my brother and I had to let him go because it was the right thing to do at that moment. And I, all I could think about as I'm talking to him is his little kids and his wife and, and this was in Honduras and I'm like, I know that it's 52% unemployment rate and I know all these things and it was so hard and I was crushed.

But I knew I had to do it. And some people could do that with snap of fingers. All right. You're fired. You're gone. Sorry. But for me it was this [00:39:00] internal, it was like this, this battle in me. And when I did it, it hurt. I still knew it was right, but it hurt. And it, it did hurt the relationship and it it's, it's, you know, we've reconciled now and, and, you know, we are brothers, not literally, but, but.

But it's hard. Right. So, I mean, I don't know. What do you think of all that?

[00:39:25] Paul: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's, there's always that battle especially if you're a relationship type person, there's always that battle of what's what's best for this person. And at what point does that interfere with what's best for the rest of the team or the rest of the culture or, or whatever.

And there is a line where you can push it so far that what may benefit on really doesn't benefit the rest. So while you're trying to help one, you're hurting the other 30 or however many are on your, on your team or in your group, or, you know, in your environment. And there's a point where, you gotta let that person go or, whatever you need to do, move them on.

[00:40:00] And that's a tough, tough thing as a coach. But I think one thing that, you know, Ted had done is he had built a relationship with Roy. And whether Roy realize it or not, maybe not up to that moment, but I think Roy realized that Ted did care about him. You know, that it was probably a difficult decision now how he handled it and all that is different initially, but it probably made it easier long-term because he had built some relationship there, and I think that's important as coaches.

And I've, I've seen that for myself when I've gotten to the point where I've had to let a kid go or, or, or whatever. It wasn't easy. And maybe the reason you were able to reconcile we there's two, cause there was some relationship there. It was like, okay, this isn't, you know, it's not personal, but it's, what's best.

You're part of a team. You're part of a group it's what's best for everybody may not be what's best for you now in the long run, maybe it is best for that person. Maybe they need to learn some lessons or whatnot, but it's, it's difficult. And there's times I'm envious of those who can just. Rip the bandaid off and move on.

Not [00:41:00] really. I don't ever want to be that way, but sometimes like, man, I wish I could just rip the bandaid off this thing and move past it, but that's not how I'm wired. But it was interesting to see how that, that character development kind of played through with Roy and how. Ted struggled with that decision.

But again, he surrounded himself with people that can help him do hard things where beard is like, gotta do it. I mean, I've had my assistants at times where like, Hey, I'm glad I'm not the head coach, but this is the right thing. You need to go

[00:41:25] Phil: do that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. No. And like you said, I mean, that's why it is important to surround ourselves with those people who can do those things.

And that's, that's actually, at that point, I had my COO who was wired. I mean, if it was him, he would have gone and just. We got to let you go. And he would've been fine and he would have walked on and it would have, and he would have known that it might affect the relationship, but that's what had to be done for the bottom line.

That's what had to be done for the, you know, and I should've known working for a law firm that bottom line ruled there, you know, but, [00:42:00] but that was never, it was never okay. But, but it, it has to have, like, it has to be a, both, and it has to be a balance. It has to, we have to live in that tension, but if we're by ourselves having to do that, we probably won't do it.

If we don't have the people around us, like Ted would not have done it. If beard wasn't pushing him. Right. And so we need to surround ourselves with those people who will not only, not only who, people who think differently from us, but people who we have that trust with where if he didn't have that trust with beard, beard, wouldn't have told him may wouldn't have told Ted if beer, didn't say it an ask.

She was thinking it obviously, but wouldn't have said it because the trust wasn't. It hadn't been built that relationship wasn't there. She didn't earn that conversation. So that's really, really important to, to, to be thinking about as well. So, all right. Couple more things. And then we'll wrap this this episode up, but from episode 10, one of the things I wanted to talk about is this idea of Rebecca was talking [00:43:00] to Ted and they were freaking out about this man city game or Ted was, and how were they going to play?

And they had to win to not be relegated and. And he said, there's no way we can beat this team. They're way better than us. And she said, well, every disadvantage has an advantage. And she said, can't you take the fact that you know nothing about this game and use it to your advantage, you know? And, and that reminds me of this idea of everything has a shadow.

Right? So. Every good thing has a side of it. So like the internet has a lot of great to it, but it also has tremendous evil, right. This idea of, of, you know, Ted not knowing anything. And obviously it's silly. I mean, they do the lasso special where they'd basically a football play. I mean, it's kind of, it's utterly ridiculous, but it's, it's this.

Concept though that is a truth that we often just see the bad. We often just see the negative. We often just see the downside of it. We see the dark side of that shadow and we don't look at it. What benefit can this bring, what positive can [00:44:00] come out of this? What is the good side of this? You know, just because the internet has bad things doesn't mean you shut it down.

It means you make it better. Right? And so those are, these are these concepts that, and came out of that for me. And how we, again, going back to innovation, innovation happens when people see things differently than the way it's always been done. And they use it for their advantage. And so, I dunno, what, what, what would you take away from that?

Yeah, I think

[00:44:28] Paul: you've got to have that perspective as a, as a leader. You know, I remember when we, when we came to Baylor and you know, they hadn't had a winning season and gosh, I think nine years prior and some of the drawbacks that we were hearing was, well, you know, they've lost for a long time.

They don't. You know, a winning perspective, it's a Christian school. It's hard to recruit to. And we took that as like, oh, that's one of the reasons we want to go there. It's a Christian school. Those are the types of kids that we want to recruit and mentor. So we took a lot thought was a disadvantage and flipped it and said, and we built a [00:45:00] program around those values that people thought were disadvantages.

They became a lot of our core values of what we built the program on. So I think it's also important to know the environment you're stepping into. And but you're right. I think you've got to think outside the box a lot of times even when you're, you're building a program or creating a culture or whatever, you got to see, you know, you've got to see what others don't.

And you've got to see that other side of the coin. You've got to see you know, those things that you can step into that, people might see as a weakness that you can take and make it an advantage and a strength. And you know, that's, you know, in the story is probably the, the only reason that, Ted's had any success.

It wasn't his soccer knowledge, he was this great soccer brain. It was the other side of the coin. It was the heat that, that. That team Dennis only need a soccer coach. They needed some of the could build a culture, they needed culture building. They needed people that poured into them. They, you know, they weren't the greatest soccer players either, but it became better than, [00:46:00] than they could have been individually, individually, because he able to build a culture.

And they stood more on that to become more successful. And I think as we were watching the episode Marci and I were kind of laughing because we see the Ted lasso special and we kind of look at each other the same time. I think we could pull that off, you know, where those coaches, I think we could pull that off, you know?

We're just crazy enough to try that.

[00:46:21] Phil: Yeah. That's funny now. And, and, you know, and I, and I want to end with the way the season ended with well, it wasn't quite the end. It was close to the end, but it showed this contrast of Jamie in the. I don't know if it was a locker room, it was some room in the back of the stadium and it, and, and Ted was about to go in and probably give them the note that beard ended up giving him later, but, and his dad was railing into him about why didn't you take the shot?

He could have been the hero you could have scored. And, and it showed the, the impact of a, [00:47:00] an unhealthy. Or, I mean, you could say lack of a father too, but it was really an unhealthy father in a kid's life. And, and you see the, the, again, the character development that show is fantastic. And sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's obvious, but this was, this is more of the obvious brand, but you see.

Jamie is who he is a lot, you know, so much of it very likely comes out of that. His dad saying, you need to be the hero. You need to be the guy who's the Lima. You are the best, you know? Yeah. It's personality style. There's, that's part of it. But what's being poured in, is going to come out. As my wife says, you know, when, when you're squeezed, what juice comes out, right?

Like in that that's going to be so much of what goes into you. What, what, you know, how are you nurtured? Some of it's, you know, it's nature and nurture. And so, but then to contrast that with the end, when beard walks up to Jamie getting on the bus, it gives him the note from Ted. And all it says is way to make the extra pass.

I'm [00:48:00] Ted. And because Jamie kept thinking Ted was playing head games because he was speaking highly of him and speaking, as you know, I love, I love Jamie, Jamie, you know, he's he's, I appreciate him. He's a great player. He's, you know, credible talent he's this and that. And Jamie kept thinking he was playing head games and then he gets that note and he realized it wasn't head games.

He actually cares. He didn't have that grown-up right. And that really struck me. I mean, from obviously the human element, but also because I work with orphan and vulnerable kids all over the place and to see that that's so many of them, that's their story. And they, they don't have the people pouring into them.

So how can we come around them and to see the impact that Ted had on Jamie? Obviously you see in season two, a little bit more, but how can we not only give these kids a chance? Cause he obviously had the chance and he was taking it and he was doing really well, but he was empty. Right. And you could see that little note that what, 10 [00:49:00] words or whatever, probably made more impact on him than.

Many many, many words is that had ever like in a positive way. So that was something that I thought, man, this is so powerful. And it was just this quiet scene. There were no words spoken and yet it spoke a million. So what'd you think?

[00:49:22] Paul: Yeah. I mean, we've talked about that on, or we've talked about this on the show quite a bit too.

You know, as, as coaches sometimes we, we kind of play the role of a primary parent in a kid's life. You know, they may not have that at home or at least, you know, in a lot of ways, a secondary parent, you know, you're another voice of reason. You're a voice of caring. You're a nurturer, you're a, you know, a mentor.

And you don't really know what impact you're going to have on somebody. You know, you've been to ed with, with Jamie, you know, He was pouring into him from the beginning and got nothing really, but pushback, but he knew that that's what Jamie needed and he was going to do it [00:50:00] no matter what. And you know, it made a massive impact on, on him and his life because he, you know, he was probably abrasive to it because it wasn't, it wasn't natural.

It wasn't normal. It didn't feel right to Jamie. But he kind of liked it, but didn't want to open himself up because you know, you're opening yourself up for disaster, you think in your own mind, but I think as coaches or leaders, we've got to remember, what kind of impact we're leaving on people we don't even know sometimes.

So I thought it was a great, a great finish to that season as well.

[00:50:28] Phil: Yeah, definitely. All right. So as we finish up this halftime show, do you have any. Parting words for our audience. Any, any recommendations, any things that you have that you want to leave with them?

[00:50:41] Paul: Nah, I'm just really excited about where we're going, where next season is, is taken us with these interviews and just encourage folks to continue to, to lean into each other as resources as we're trying to be a resource for you.

You're a resource for us as well. As you said, a lot of these guests come from our own. Connections, whether it's through [00:51:00] this podcast or other things that we're doing but we're all resources for each other and helping, helping each other get better. I know Phil and I are that for each other but are also doing this so that we can connect in and learn ourselves.

So appreciate everybody who's participating in,

[00:51:14] Phil: in. And so do I, and I expressed that every show, I don't just sit there and just words, I'm very grateful for each and every one of you who listen because you're obviously learning and, and you have that learning posture. And, and, and so as Paul just said your resources to us.

So, so reach out to us. Paul gave his email earlier pajobson@gmail.com and mine is phil@howsoccerexplainsleadership.com. Reach out to us, share guests with us. Share thoughts with us. We'd love to continue the conversation with you. If you have questions about Coaching the Bigger Game or Warrior Way or. Or the, the consulting stuff that, that Paul's talking about doing, you know, reach out and ask the questions and see what, see if it's a fit for you.

And we won't do any [00:52:00] hard sells it's if it's a fit, it's a fit. If it's not, it's not. And that's the reality. We know we have things that can help and we want to help. We want to hear, we want to be able to serve you and to be able to help you to, to flourish and so that you can help the people that are on your teams. If you're running a business that we can help you flourish and we can help your people flourish. That's, that's why we do what we do. And those aren't just words. It's not just a sales pitch. That's the reality. It's it's, it's what Paul and I do and what we love. And so, so please reach out.

You can connect with us also on the Facebook group, how soccer explains leadership, Facebook group. You can ask questions there and we, we will get back to you. We will answer them and we'll, we will definitely have that conversation with you. Last thing Again, the coach and the bigger game program we'll be launching in the next couple of weeks.

So if you're interested in that, please go fill out the form at coachingthebiggergame.com. We'd love to be able to get that you into that first class. We're going to have some introductory rate. And things like that that will go away if you aren't part of the initial group. [00:53:00] So we would love for you to be able to do that.

And I would love more than anything for listeners of this show to be able to be a part of that. and also if you listen to this and you know, it can help others share it with them, don't just assume they'll find it somewhere because there's a millions, there's millions, literally of podcasts out there and a hundred thousand start.

And every week I think is what it is. It's kinda crazy. So, share it with. You know, don't just post on social media, expect that they're going to see it, send him an email, drop him a text, say, Hey, listen to this episode, I thought of you. That will mean a lot to them as well, because it shows that you're thinking about, and you care about their development as well.

So we just want to be able to help you learn, help others learn that are in your path. And we really do. I say this. Every episode and I'm mean it. I really hope that you're taking what you're learning from this, and it's helping you to be a better leader, helping you to be a better spouse, a better parent, a better leader in your community.

And you know, maybe not most of, I would say most of all, but I don't know if it's most often it's super [00:54:00] important. I do hope that you take what you learned from this and you, and it reminds you that soccer and most sports, as we learned with Aaron Locks and Cheryl McCormick, really do explain life and leadership.

Thanks a lot. Have a great week.