Season 2 Halftime Show with Paul Jobson

[00:00:00] Phil: [00:00:00] Welcome back to How Soccer Explains Leadership. We are here today at our halftime show with Paul Jobson, my cohost. I'm Phil Darke, your host. As you've been following along, you've heard all kinds of great interviews with amazing people in the first half of Season 2. And I'm excited now because I got my brother Paul, my co-host, in the house with me again today.

I feel like this truly is like a halftime show where if you really like the announcers and the pregame, the post-game, and the halftime, then you're bummed throughout the play-by-play. And that's probably what happens here with you, Paul. People are like, when's Paul coming back? 'Cause I'm sick of you, Phil.

So Paul, how you been, man?

Paul: [00:00:39] I've been great, man, I hope people feel that way.  But things are great. We got the kids back on campus and training and getting back into the swing of things, looking forward to getting ready for some matches and trying to put in some of the lessons I've learned through How Soccer Explains Leadership Podcast into my team and staff.

And actually it came up in a coaching conversation today. One of my staff members said, [00:01:00] yeah, I heard what you were talking about on How Soccer Explains Leadership. I was like, bonus points for listening to the podcast.

Phil: [00:01:06] Fantastic. I hope that it wasn't you're not following your own advice.

I hope you actually are living it out.

Paul: [00:01:12] Totally totally living it out.

Phil: [00:01:14] All right. Just making sure, So, so, for those of you don't know out there, Paul is the Baylor Women's Soccer Head Coach. He was the first interview on this show and is now the co-host because I liked that interview so much.

I mean, that's just basically what it was. And I have no doubt that you're going to learn from Paul today as you've been learning from the other guests, because Paul as my co-host able to come in. Listen to all these other interviews, be able to have some conversations about what we took away from them, as well as some of the things we can learn from Paul as a head coach of a major, top D-1 program.

But also as a dad and as a husband and, All, not all angles, but a good chunk of the angles covered here. So let's just jump right into it. What were some of the main takeaways from this first half of [00:02:00] season two that you had that just really stuck out to you from the different guests that we had?

Paul: [00:02:04] Yeah. Again, Phil, I think just a good spread of different backgrounds and knowledges. And that's the thing that I just keep pulling away from our podcast here is just the different people that we're able to bring in and talk to and get experience from, and always asking, What are you reading? What are you listening to? And those perspectives are, are fantastic as well, but I just think the backgrounds that the different people have, but at the same time, when you find that commonality with, somebody that's on the show I think there was a lot of that over these last four episodes that I was able to connect to for sure.

I know in the past we've talked a lot about culture, so culture still runs through this a lot in the leadership, but I think there's some other things that I know we'll touch on today on the halftime show that stuck out a little bit more too, and just some great, great guests for some great insights in life, soccer and leadership.

Phil: [00:02:50] So just to run down, if you missed it, any of these episodes, you can obviously go back on howsoccerexplainsleadership.com or Apple Podcasts, wherever you're at listening to this, you can go back and listen to [00:03:00] those other episodes. We started off season with Lee Baker.

He's a, club coach in Houston, Texas. He also, runs the legacy program there and Uscore soccer. Don Williams. he's a recruiter. With sports recruiting USA. we obviously can't go into a little, some of the things here because Paul is a college coach as well, but those were the first two episodes.

Don goes into just really A to Z of recruiting. Tons of great advice if you have Kids who are looking at college or pro, but also if you're a, if you're an organizational leader on recruiting to just get some tips there, if you're looking for a job somewhere there was so much great advice on that, episode, just about really what goes into recruiting and what are the things we can learn, About selling ourself, not in a way that's a bad way, but in a good way, in a way to just put ourselves out there in the most positive light, but also be honest and give the full story so people can understand that. We had Michelle Lenard Dallas Baptist university women's soccer head coach.

Good friend of Paul's and she was [00:04:00] on sharing with us about what she's learning from others, how she's incorporating it into her coaching, as well as some other great fun things that we were able to talk about. And then we ended this half with Toriono Davis who is a friend of mine, a DISC consultant, a man who is a pro scout.

he's able to. As Don was talking about the right fit idea. Toriono is a guy who was able to really find that right fit. As he said, for a lot of these players who are I forget what he said. It was somewhat like recycled or something. I forget. But there was something like that.

I didn't really like the humans being referred that way, but I get what he's talking about. With that. So, I just wanted to start with you, Paul. Talking about a couple of the concepts in the first couple interviews that we had in one of them was just this idea of the both/and of teaching model, teaching and modeling character ethics and integrity and competing at the highest level.

I know that's something you do at Baylor. So I just wanted to just throw that out there to you and say, what'd you think about that concept, that idea. how does that play out and how are you able to do that? And we talked a little bit about this in our initial [00:05:00] interview with you, but just with your players, how are you able to have that balance and keep that balance and also live it out as the coach and continually be keeping yourself and having others, keeping you accountable to being able to do that.

Paul: [00:05:12] Yeah. And I think what's interesting as you talk to those conversations, some names that pop up consistently in those conversations is people revere Klopp as somebody that does a really good job of that too. So I, don't know why that just came to my mind, but just throwing that out there.

And I say that, because in some ways, as a leader, that's trying to do these things, you need to find other leaders that are doing it And you need to look at what they're doing and how they're having success. Doing that, but the other piece of it too, is surrounding yourself with people.

We've talked about this too, on this podcast is surrounding yourself with people that have the similar vision and mission that you do that it's not, totally about soccer, but soccer can be the tool and the avenue to develop young people. And I think in college, we've got a unique opportunity to do that in the college game.

But I don't think it's something that should be missed in any other level, especially as you get younger, it's obviously more [00:06:00] important. I think, as you get into the professional ranks, there's a big piece of it. There also, it just may look a little bit differently. But I think some of the main things that I, I want to get across in this is something honestly that we're struggling with a little bit.

With right now with COVID is you want your players to see you in real life? You know, what does it look like when your kids show up to the facility what is it like after the game? do they overhear some conversations with you and your wife on the phone? does your family get to come to team meals?

I think seeing. not just the coach, but the person is important. And, and we've, we haven't really been able to do that with COVID because, you're trying to protect what's your bubble and things like that and bring it in your rugrats who just came from school may not be the best way to protect from COVID necessarily.

but I think those are some things that are important. Have your players see you as, as not just as a coach, but as a person are the other areas you're leading in. And who are you leading with? And I know for me my wife has a huge. support system for me in trying to get across those things to our players and being able to rely on her for feedback [00:07:00] to, to myself.

So surround yourself with people that are like-minded and have those things, same beliefs that you do. And then also you have to be able to, to listen to them and take some criticism at times, so that, as well as having your players and staff see you not just as a coach, but seeing some of your real life also.

Phil: [00:07:16] that's so important. That goes to really any leader in any arena in organizations to bring your kids, you know, if it's appropriate and obviously at the right time, but bring your kids to work, let them see you and let other people see you in that, in those areas. I think for organizations to have family picnics and things that we used to have all the time, it was a no brainer.

You have the little carnivals and the picnics. I remember going to those with my dad and his work. But I don't see those a lot of times anymore. I don't see that with most the really healthy ones do it, but I think we've created these kind of you know Silos in our lives.

That's not the word I was looking for, but these ideas that we have this, area that we're working and then this area is our family. And then this area is our church. And then this area is our rotary or whatever, and, and never the twain shall meet. Right. And that I think is a huge [00:08:00] disservice, but it also doesn't help us to grow.

It. Doesn't help organizations to be as healthy as they could be. Definitely in, in that regard. So yeah, that, that's something that I. love that you said that just about also the, the fact that, you know, surrounding ourselves with like-minded people at the same time, though, not a bunch of yes.

Men and women, right? Like we don't want people who are going to just say rubber stamp. Great job, Paul. You're awesome. No, you want people like-minded and mission, vision values, but who are going to be challenging and offering different perspectives?

Paul: [00:08:29] Yeah. I mean, if you've been on a great team or part of a great program for just talking about just, football in general you know, everybody on the team has the same goal, right?

if you're on the pitch and you're, you know, you're trying to win the game, you want to put the ball in the back of the net, keep the ball out of your net. You're going to try and find ways to do that. But each individual position has a different responsibility. Now you're all going towards the same goal and you're trying to accomplish the same thing, but you can't all do the exact same thing.

And I think in a team and in a corporate environment or whatever, it's the same thing. You know, you, you have that mission and vision, [00:09:00] that high level thing that you're looking at, but you need maybe some different ideas. You need to find different ways to, to achieve the goals that you're trying to achieve and have different parts to, to your group to get there.

But. I think that mission, vision and value pieces is extremely critical. And being able to, for your, team to see you in a different environment, living out the same mission, vision, and value that you put across to them on the pitch or in the locker room. If they see that, then they, I think it's easier for them to get on board where they're like, man, okay, this person really lives this out.

This isn't just talk. This isn't just, something that he made up or has been working. So we keep going with it. This is, this is just who this person is. And I think you hope that comes through. Now when Marci and I were doing this together, there's you don't know my wife and I coached together for a really long time.

That was a little easier to get across because they saw myself and her interacting daily, you know we'd get along or we'd argue or they see conflict resolution. they saw the whole gamut of it. And then we started adding children. It was a really, really cool environment in that way.

But [00:10:00] I think they did gain a lot out of that, even the players and went through that thought it was a really cool thing to see. You're living out that mission, vision and value in your household.

Phil: [00:10:07] Absolutely. And I think that, that goes to the next thing I wanted to talk about, which is the idea of mentoring that also came up in a few of the different interviews. The idea of mentoring and the importance of mentoring. I know Toriono talked about it. I know that Lee talked about it. And I believe Michelle talked about it as well, but just these ideas Of the, older mentoring, the younger, and whether it's a leadership council that Michelle, whether it was, Toriono talking about, Messi being mentored by Ronaldinho or some of these other guys, mentored by others.

And then, Lee talking about older kids in the club, mentoring, younger kids in the club. And I know that at Baylor, you have your players do whether it's camps or other things. What are your thoughts on that? Just as far as whether it's in a club to have older kids mentoring the younger kids in the club, and maybe even having teams assigned to other teams these other players that you're seniors, maybe mentoring the freshmen the importance of it, and what are the things that the older kids get out of it, the [00:11:00] younger kids get out of it and that you as a coach, Get out of it as a team.

Paul: [00:11:04] Yeah, I loved the the conversations on mentorship, especially from Toriono I think he had some great, great wisdom in that you guys talked a good bit about mentorship. I think for all of us, even as coaches, as leaders, we need to have mentors continuously and I think it's.

The job of, some of the older folks to mentor the younger, I think where you get into is where you're in that crux of you're also an older and you're also a younger, can you be mentored and mentor at the same time, you absolutely can. from a team perspective. You hope that your veterans are putting some of the younger players under their wing, so to speak and helping them along to navigate the things that they need to learn, that the difficulties of coming through.

We talk a lot about even with our injured players, Hey, when you get through this, you're going to have an experience now of coming through something difficult that you can share with the next person that is probably going to get injured. I mean, unfortunately we're gonna have injuries within our sport, but how can you.

Mentor someone, a young player who is injured, you've been through that. That's where [00:12:00] you become a mentor. And maybe you didn't handle it. Well, you can still be a mentor, but if you've realized you didn't handle it well and say, Hey, this is the path that I took it. Maybe wasn't so good. But you, it, mentoring is just taking your experience and helping others make decisions in their own experience.

So they can learn through the things that you've been through. And I think from a team perspective, It can be difficult at times I think here, just with the, relative closeness in age, you're just talking about two or three years here for the most part, maybe four. But I think in a club setting I think at a professional level where you've got, you know, the veteran player that's been playing for 15 years and the rookie that's coming in that thinks he knows it all or the humble guy that's coming in, whatever it is, they all need the mentorship.

to learn from other's experiences. I love the idea in the club setting of having older players, mentor younger players. I love it. I think there's some clubs that do a really great job of going both ways on it, where they take the younger kids up to watch the older kids play. So they're watching it in action.

Which means a lot when those older players come down, maybe to a younger kids training session or go to their matches and watch [00:13:00] and start building relationships within the club, where these kids can build natural relationships too. We've tried to create something here Within our own team of, of trying to provide some mentorship of people outside of the team too, that are a little bit older, that, that have a little bit more wisdom that they can bring to, to our players.

It'll benefit them. And I think at the club setting it is important that. Those older and younger players get together and have conversations because There's a lot to navigate. You mentioned camps. I think one of the coolest things about running camps as a college coach is watching your older players gravitate to these younger players and, watching them coach watching them, teach, watching them lead and influence and watching the eyes of these young girls for the most part when it comes to our College camps there. I just get so wide. We're like, man, this person is awesome. I'll do whatever they say. And just the influence that these older players can have on these campers. Yeah. The last thing you asked was what is it that the mentor or the older players are getting out of it? Well, I, I just kinda mentioned it teaching, [00:14:00] right.

Sometimes be the best teacher. I love it when my young players coach for the first time. And like, man, that actually was kind of hard, it's not as natural as it, as it seems at times. But when they realize the influence they can have on a younger player by coaching and teaching it, it makes them a better player.

It makes them better at whatever it is that they're doing. Some of the things I love about bringing our players in just to talk to them, one-on-one I think I'm a better coach when I can talk to the younger player. And there are times where a player can mentor coach, I think just through conversation.

Phil: [00:14:31] Yeah, that thing that I've talked about over and over in my life is the fact that you learn the best when you teach it. And it also gives you more confidence as well that you know it, that you're in to have the kids looking up to you. That gives you both more confidence, but also responsibility.

That people are watching. Yeah. So going back to the ethics and the character and the integrity, when you have little kids that are watching you and they're coming to your games, and they're seeing you, you know, when you're thinking about saying a certain word, or you're thinking about doing something cheap shot, [00:15:00] or you're just really frustrated or mad, you have a responsibility.

And I think that that helps as well and that's life, right? I mean, when we're with our kids, they're watching us, somebody is watching, you're leading somebody. So that idea of leadership and mentorship is, critical. Both and, and it's great. I mean, it's just such a great teacher, but it's also something that reinforces the other things that you're wanting to do and instill in the players and in your team will hopefully that's the case.

Anyway, hopefully they're teaching that and it's reinforcing it as they're teaching it. And the things that you're teaching them they're then teaching others. And actually an interview, I just did. that's sneak preview of things to come to that amazing guy. And he talks about the idea of the head is learning the hands are practicing and acting it out. And then the heart is, reflecting on it and teaching others. And so that's all I'm gonna say about that, but it's really cool, but it made me think about it because of this. I think that that really the idea of mentorship allows and to be mentored by people love the idea.

You're talking about the alumni, and other, other older people speaking truth into the team as well [00:16:00] to make them stronger. But again, it's the beauty of mentorship, is it benefits everyone involved with it. And even the peripheral people who are the collateral good collateral damage you know, it's collateral help.

It's not collateral damage, right. It's collateral help that they're just getting the benefits from it. Which is fantastic.

Paul: [00:16:19] Yeah. And we've done things even where you have everybody talks about captain led practices and whatnot, and that's usually happens when you're not allowed to be with your team, but we've even done it.

During our normal season where we'll say, Hey, a week from Friday or whatever the day is, you guys are going to lead a session. Here's what we think you should cover. It's nothing new. We're not giving you new materials, things we've done in the past. But you're going to take the session.

We'll be there. and it will be, you're a resource and a guy, and we can talk leading up to that, but you're going to run the session. And we've seen that be an incredible teacher for our players when we're able to actually incorporate that into what we're doing. Because they see it from a whole different perspective.

Okay. Now you're not just a player. You're now you're the coach. And you have to figure out how to speak to your different players and you have [00:17:00] to, and that's a way to mentor is to give people, you mentioned it responsibility. Hey, it's now your responsibility to get something out of this training session to where we're getting better.

But giving me that responsibility is I think a key thing, but not giving it to them. if they're not quite ready,

Phil: [00:17:13] And I can tell you when I was a young lawyer to have an older attorney walking alongside to help and not just be someone that's hammering down on me, but to actually help me.

And I know that part of their job is to help me to flourish. That was such a massive thing that was so helpful. And they also were there to challenge me in a good, healthy way. But also to support and encourage. So, but it's that care, it's that coming in and actually caring about it?

I had a, in my, in the other podcast, I do had an interview with Peter Greer who runs hope international, phenomenal organization, and micro finance all around the world. And he talked about mentoring and the idea of mentoring in different areas of his life that He knew he needed to be better in.

And I think that's a great lesson for us as well is, to find mentors, whether it's in the game of soccer to find mentors who, are better strikers, so maybe they can [00:18:00] help us with our shooting or better, defenders. They can help us with our footwork and our defending or people who have amazing touch.

How are they working on that? So to be able to do that, if you're really wanting to go to that next level, to be able to do that and be able to really find those mentors or in life, In the same way in all these different areas of our lives that we need help with to find those mentors in those areas.

So I want to shift gears a little bit now you talked about camps earlier and really camps are one of the things that a lot of people now are looking at as a recruiting tool of way to see players also to go out and be seen. And, in the conversation I had with Don Williams, we talked a lot about just the ins and outs of recruiting.

And I'm curious to hear from your perspective as you listened to, as you we're thinking about that as you obviously are thinking about recruiting probably more than you ever thought you would

Paul: [00:18:44] thinking about it a whole lot differently now than we did a year ago. That's for sure.

Phil: [00:18:48] Absolutely. Really.  in that he talked about the number one re from his perspective, he talked about number one, recruiting tool, not being emails, ID, camps, videos, but network of friends and other coaches around the country. [00:19:00] obviously you use all of those, but what would you say from your perspective from your program?

if, you're talking to people out there about your program, what are ways that you, recruit? What are the things that you see as the things that really stick out to you as you're going? And it probably could be a mix of the bunch, but if you're looking at an email, what sticks out, if you're looking at a video, what sticks out or ID camps away that you're really.

seeing. And what does that look like from your perspective?

Paul: [00:19:24] I think what's, probably the hardest thing for families to really navigate. In the recruiting process is that there are so many different one, there's a ton of levels of play. The women's game is even crazier because there's just so many opportunities at a division one level.

But you've got different degrees of division one. I think it was talked about in the episodes, is you've got even different degrees of division one and help having someone help you navigate that it can be very helpful for us. And we consider ourselves being top program that's competitive on the recruiting landscape and on the pitch.

For us, a lot of it is. the coaches that are out there that are at the club level them knowing what it is that we look for in [00:20:00] players not just soccer wise, but personality and relying a lot on their feedback. But at the same time, getting our eyes on people, we need to see, I think it's one of the difficult things about recruiting right now is we, the only games we're really watching that we're allowed to watch are, live stream.

Well, if I can figure out the difference of the players on there, and I can, if I can see their numbers, then maybe I can differentiate one from the other, but I can't hear their voice necessarily. I don't know how they're speaking to their coaches. I don't know how they're speaking to their other teammates.

How are they really responding from a bad play or a bad call or a misplay on their own behalf. So you miss some of that. So getting in front of, for me, players getting in front of me are extremely important. the camps, Hey, get to a camp get in front of us, find out what camps we're at, getting in front of us there.

If we haven't been able to get to one of your showcase events or whatever, but for us, it is definitely the eye test, but yeah. Who you know, and who knows you, who's speaking up for you? Is huge because whether I find a kid because I've been out of the field to find them, [00:21:00] or someone sends me, or they send me an email that catches my eye and I go watch them, no matter what I will be talking to the coach.

If you've been a kid that has gone from club to club, I will probably call every club You've played at. And see, okay, this is what she told me, why they left what was your perspective? So those relationships are really, really important through the recruiting process.

Some other things, As much as I, you know, we can talk about social media on a, probably entire podcast. I'm going to look at your social media accounts. I'm going to see how you represent yourself and your family and your school to get an idea if I want to continue that process. So but it just the identification process that we're talking about.

Word of mouth is important from your coaches. how you treat those relationships is important because I feel like however you're treating that club coach is probably very similar to how you're going to treat us in our environment. So I think those relationships are, very important for how we are going to find players cause we're going to gravitate to, the best tournaments, the best clubs, the best, you know, the best of the best. But there's some [00:22:00] other programs at other levels that are going to navigate that a little bit differently. if I've got a full staff, if it's just me running my own program at a lower level, I'm going to rely heavier probably on a recruiting service.

to bring me people or send me people or or things like that. So there's a whole range of, navigating that, which can be pretty difficult. But I do think those relationships are at the end of the day, no matter how you are found at the end of the day, there will be a conversation with your coach or coaches.

Phil: [00:22:27] And I think that goes to one of the other things that was said in that interview, really, that I talked about the idea of you really need at the, to play at the college level and beyond you really have to have that raw athleticism that's there. Plus the work ethic, plus that passion for the game.

It's really hard. Now you might have some outliers, but for the most part have you found that to be true? And if so, how are you recruiting for that? I mean, I assume it's through the conversations with the coaches or seeing, but how do you gauge passion as, as you're recruiting? I mean, you can't really, I [00:23:00] guess, to a certain extent, because people can say the right things, but are there things that you're looking for that you can see that, or that you've seen over the time as you've done this.

For over a decade,

Paul: [00:23:10] I think action. We'll tell you a lot. So the questions I'll ask coaches, who are the kids that come early and stay late? we talked about that. I think Toriono, we were talking about that with somebody that Toriono was talking about. I think he was about Ronaldo we're talking Ronaldo, right?

Yep. First one there last one to leave. who were the soccer junkies? that's passion to me is, Who are the kids that are willing to do extra? when you asked them to, or don't ask them to, I think that's one way to find passion another way isn't just soccer, but what else are these people involved in?

sometimes being all about soccer. Isn't the best thing for someone, what are, what are their other passions? What drives them? how are they in school? what are they connected to? But. I think trying to find, true. What is their true passion is a difficult thing.

And how does that translate to the next level? Doesn't always, but you can, make your best bets by talking to coaches and hopefully [00:24:00] getting real sense of their drive and determination. how are they when things get hard? we were recruiting a kid a couple of years ago, and I remember just kind of talking to the coach and said, Hey, she's obviously the best player on your team.

That's obvious, where every school in the country is recruiting her. Tell me something about her that I wouldn't know, because I'm not at training or that, that you know, that I'm not going to see just watching games is that this kid is one of the best players in the country. And that's obvious, he said, But she's also the kid that meets me at my car and grabs the ball bag and bring the field.

And she's the leader on the team and I'm like, okay I'm really interested, you know, I'm more interested now, that was not a deal breaker, but a deal maker for me and that okay. That kid's not just passionate about soccer, she's passionate about her team. she's going to go serve her coach by grabbing the ball bag and serving her team by making sure the equipment gets out of there.

Cause coaches, right. We drag our feet. We may not get there. We got to talk to parents and other coaches and, you know, Hey, it probably was, Hey coach, [00:25:00] you're going to be awhile. Can I grab the ball bag for you? And so we can go warm up, but whatever the reasoning that's what you're looking for, what are the other things that I'm not going to see on the pitch that make this kid who they are that I want to be part of my program.

Phil: [00:25:11] And I remember that when I was hiring, when I was doing interviews as a lawyer, I remember. And when I'm done it for the nonprofit that I now run, it's the same thing. you see a resume and you see the grades, you see they were number one in their class at whatever law school.

And my thing was if they kept, if they came to an interview and they kept telling me about how they were number one in their class, in law school, I typically didn't want them. Because I could see that on the paper, but that's not what makes you, you, so you might be the best player in the country, but on one hand you could also be the, all the good stuff you just talked about, or you could be the one who's totally arrogant.

And the virus that we've talked about that in the past too. And it could be one or the other. And if it is the best player in the country, you have to then make a way. It could be the best lawyer you've ever seen. It could be the best number one at Harvard law school, but they could be someone who would be a terrible person to work with, [00:26:00] or they could be a terrible person to play with.

And so then you have to make that decision and go, okay, I got Cristiano Ronaldo, but is he gonna make my team worse because he's going to come in and think that he has to get everything in his, get the special treatment has to get all these other things. That's going to make everyone else play worse and think that why'd you bring this person in.

And that's really hard to do because they would bring a ton of amazing things to it. But you have to look at it with all these other things we've talked about. I think that's something we've talked a lot about over the past, but it's just something that I don't think we can talk enough about either.

Speaking of just other coaches now, we're going to transition from that recruiting conversation. So I think is such an important one. not just because so many people are doing it, and I think there's so many different ways it's being done well, and other ways that it kind of gets a little sketchy out there, but let's transition to this other coaches.

We talked with Michelle Lenard and she's not only another top university coach, but she's also there in Texas with you. So just a few hours away from you up the road, but what'd you think of her interview? Just, generally speaking, what were some things that stuck [00:27:00] out to you in that interview?

Paul: [00:27:01] well, obviously, I know Michelle pretty well we've crossed paths quite a bit over, the years, a ton of respect for her and her program. And I think that's a mutual, or I'll say that she's not on here, so I'll just make her accountable to that. I think she respects ours too now, but yeah, there, there are a lot of great things from her.

What I love about Michelle is she is a, constant learner. you can tell from the books that she's reading the things that she, the people that she's talking to where she's stealing ideas, from, as you talked about on there, but that's what we're doing, right? we're taking ideas from other people and trying to make ourselves better for, our group.

And I think that's something that I loved about her conversation is just obviously extremely humble about how. I don't know if you guys even talked about the success that she's had at Dallas Baptist. But it's, extremely incredible what she's been able to do there. But the fact that in talking to her, you can tell she's very humble and she's going to say, you know, I don't know all the answers, but we're going to work together to, make this happen.

Even with her leadership council, I think the way she goes about leadership development with her team. Is great. we have a commonality in What my former assistant and [00:28:00] her former assistant are actually now married coaching at a university together. So I've heard, just from all sides of things.

In fact, my assistant went to her, when they first got married, she was working with Michelle also as a, they were a married couple. But I love how they develop their leaders, that leadership council and, all of that. I got a lot out of that for sure.

Phil: [00:28:17] Yeah. the things that really stuck out to me there, I just love the cutthroat game.

I mean, that was one

Paul: [00:28:22] that was just awesome. Yeah. I wrote that down for sure. But I think the, her point though, that I had to like check myself on too, is if your culture is not ready for that, you can't play the cutthroat game. You got to know your culture, you got to have a temperature of, of the room, so to speak where that, comes in of Just knowing your team, but yeah, I like that idea.

Phil: [00:28:39] And I loved so much about the game, which was really cool. As you said, the culture has to be ready for it. You got to know your team, but the lessons that you can teach out of that, that I thought were, I mean, my mind was just spinning like crazy, as far as, setting clear expectations to have almost the, job description for this is what my team is going to be.

these are the people that I'm going to keep and not cut. [00:29:00] And if you don't know what we're talking about, folks, you got to go back and listen to that interview with Michelle, because there's so much more in it, but that one part was really cool. And we'd really talking about the idea of setting clear expectations for your team, for who you want to keep on, because otherwise, if you don't have those clear expectations, whether it's, I mean, just in life, how do you know whether you're living up to the expectations of the coach?

of your teammates or whatever. So what'd you think about that conversation as far as, and what does that look like in your program? 

Paul: [00:29:27] I think you have to. Be extremely aware. Cause I know there's been times in my career where I felt, I felt like I had put forth some really clear expectations in my head.

It was very clear, you know? But it, it wasn't communicated well and it, created some issues that obviously doesn't come out right away. It's over time. I think as a leader, you have to Get back to that a little bit more in some self introspection and just really think about how you're communicating and making sure that it is clear, the expectations are clear and having a group around you can, they can say, Hey, Hey coach, the expectations aren't clear for them.

They weren't [00:30:00] clear for today or they were for the week or what we're trying to do as a team. But I think it goes back to your culture piece too. Right. What is your mission, vision, and value. And if you're clear on that, and part of it is I want to be able to set clear expectations. Your leadership group should feel comfortable coming to you say, Hey coach, I'm not sure that things are very clear right now.

And if a player can come to me and say that, I feel like I've kind of done my job in a lot of ways, I feel like that's the accountability that I need. Cause I, I'm not living in your world. I say a lot. I'm not really living in your world. So I need to know how this is kind of coming across.

But absolutely those expectations are, are critical because if you're not communicating the expectations clearly. They're not going to be met appropriately, and then you're going to be frustrated and it's a cycle it's cyclical. It's just a cycle. It's a snowball that gets bigger and bigger and bigger until you find a way to get to that point where you can readdress that and really set the expectations clearly.

It's helpful when you have a leadership group in place that can help navigate the best way to communicate that. I think we talked about this once before, where if. The group itself can [00:31:00] take hold of responsibility to communicate things before it gets to the leader, then you're doing a pretty good job, I think, because they're able to communicate your expectations clearly yeah.

on their own. So those are some of my thoughts on just making sure that expectations are communicated clearly is that there's gotta be a group of people and creating, Michelle talked a lot about creating a healthy culture. I think that's part of it is expectations also.

Phil: [00:31:24] Absolutely. I think that that's something that you said there that is so important in every area is both having That group, that leadership group that can speak truth into it to tell you, Hey Paul, you thought that that connected and you thought that that was clear, but it just wasn't.

It was, it was clear as mud. And then also the culture that has that openness, that they feel comfortable coming to you with that to tell you that, and that you're on the same page that they know it wasn't clear. Because they know that what you said. And, I imagine that you and Marcy had this happen sometimes if you're anything like me and Becca, where I say something and Becca says, [00:32:00] did you know what you just said?

And I said, yeah, I said this. And she says, that's not what everybody else in the room heard. and I take a step back and I listened to her and I go, Oh man, you're absolutely right. And I even have her look at social media posts before I put them out sometimes because I'm just like, I'm not sure if I'm saying this, if I'm.

Coming across and usually nine times out of 10, she says, yeah, you need to change that. And then I do, or I just don't even post it, cause it's just not worth it. but I think in a team the stakes are so much higher than putting out a social media post most of the time.

Because if you're misunderstood, then you're going to be frustrated and they're going to be frustrated, which if your culture is really good, you'll take care of it and you'll nip it in the bud quick. But if your culture is toxic and it's unhealthy, it's just gonna, explode into this massive thing potentially down the road, maybe not right away.

But if people keep getting frustrated and frustrated, frustrated, it's because there's not clarity, then you're just going to have. Some major issues that all could have been avoided if you just had that clarity that [00:33:00] was created at the beginning, but that takes not only you being clear, but if you're not, it takes the people being able to tell you that you're not clear.

And then you have in the humility to take a step back and go, Oh man, you're right. And then working together to say, how can we make it clear? Or you figuring out how you can make it

Paul: [00:33:17] clear. Yeah. And one thing that Michelle talked about. Early on  she was talking about stealing ideas and getting ideas from other people the other thing is, and this kind of leads to this also is, how she, learns from mistakes.

And I think great leaders learn from their mistakes and others mistakes. Which again, we go back to mentoring on that. Right. But I think you've got to learn from that miscommunication, you've made a mistake or it didn't go the right way or whatever. How do you adjust that for the next time?

And learning from those mistakes is, critical and communication. And I also say, as you're kind of, you kinda mentioned social media and it brings up text messaging and group messaging, with a leadership team. I think you have to be careful too. That you're not trying to, maybe you've miscommunicated.

You're not trying to fix that by a quick message to the team. a lot of times, that message [00:34:00] needs to be whether it's an individual message, like a one-on-one conversation or it's, you with the team communicating that. I think it's really important that it can be so much easier just to say, well, this is what I meant to say.

But to your point, sometimes social media or a group message or whatever your tone isn't coming across. I I'll give you this example. as we were first kind of coming back here you know, we were doing COVID protocol and we had some small groups and we call it week zero. Cause it wasn't really the week that we were really starting to train, but we're doing some light things to kind of get back going.

So we call it week zero And. In the moment we had small groups out there in training in the morning and our injured players didn't come out and I'm like, man, where are inter players? You know? Cause I like everybody to be out there to be part of it, to, some of the toughest things about being injured is you don't feel part of the team.

Yeah. So they're not out there. And I realized, Oh man, we sent out the groups to come out. I didn't put injured players in the groups. They were doing their own thing later. I totally messed that up. So I set out a group. Texts. Hey, injured players, once you out to be involved at the next morning session.

[00:35:00] Well, I just thought, Hey, I just cleared everything up. Right. I just totally cleared that mess up. I totally fixed my problem. Right. Well, I have a great leader who comes in and says, Hey. Most of the team thinks you're mad that they didn't show up. I was like, Oh my gosh, I totally messed that up again. You know?

So I got in front of the team and just said, Hey, I messed up. I tried to quick fix it. They're here. My expectations. I don't want you to feel like you're pulled away from the team. I wanted you to be part of it. I messed up. I didn't have you on the list. So I really kind of clarified in person what I really meant.

And obviously that went. A long way, but this is, I mean, we're talking about like three weeks ago, you know, so constantly figuring these things out as we go, but with everything going on, it was just easier just to send out a quick group texts and, made it worse than, what I thought I had fixed.

Phil: [00:35:44] Yeah, that's so important that that's something, if you miss that one again, I've said this before, go back and rewind that. Listen again, because I think that that is, there's so many things in there. It's a humility, it's an owning your mistakes. It's a sharing your weaknesses, sharing your [00:36:00] mistakes with your people that works in parenting as well.

Some of the strongest words you can say to your kids is I'm sorry, I blew it. You know, can you forgive me? Right? to segue into the next thing I wanna talk about. You gotta be careful sometimes though, because you do have to respect the boundaries and respect the relationship boundaries.

And Michelle talked about this too, that you are their coach. So in text messaging in some of these conversations, especially when one-on-one obviously the male-female part of that is something you gotta be careful with, but also just with. relationship that you are their coach, if you can be coach and friend.

Yes. But if you have to choose one, your coach, right. And just like, if you do have to choose one, your dad, rather than buddy, if you can hopefully be both most of the time, but there are times where you are dad and you better choose that one or else you're not going to be the best dad you can be.

what do you think about that conversation that she brought up there just as far as those boundaries and the relationships that that she talked

Paul: [00:36:54] about. Yeah, it's smart. I mean, you have to, you do have to be careful. And I think when you are [00:37:00] compassionate and caring you want those things to come out, and I think that's the tough part sometimes about being, we call it being the heavy, right?

Sometimes as a head coach, you have to be the heavy. But it's not because you don't care about someone, but there are boundaries. You know, Hey, sometimes the buck stops here. And I have to be the hard liner so I can't always be your buddy. You're right. you mentioned it, Hey, you said with my son, I want to be his buddy, but I absolutely have to be as dad, So there's that hard line with a coach, there things I've loved for my players to be able to slide by with just because I'm compassionate.

I care about them, but if I don't draw that hard line, I start to lose my culture. I start to lose other things that are on a bigger picture, more important than that little piece of. Hey, a little piece of compassion. So I may be helping something in the short term, but the long-term part of that vision and mission, the long term thing is being affected negatively.

And I think that's sometimes where you have to go back and forth between the, long-term mission and vision and what you think you might be able to accomplish in the right now is how I kind of navigate that sometimes. Sometimes not very [00:38:00] well but try to navigate that with our players, because you're right.

At some point there's a line. I think, there's some coaches who it's very easy for them to just say, Hey, I'm your coach, there's none of this feel good stuff, like get out and perform. Right. Just get out and perform. I've never been that guy and don't want to be, but you don't want to be the other end either.

Right? Where, you know, Hey, everything's fine and we'll talk through this and it's going to be great. there's gotta be a middle ground there.

Phil: [00:38:26] Yeah. I don't think they respect you on that side. If you're just like, everything's great. If they know it's not great. And you said that there wouldn't be a respect and then you would lose your team.

Like you said, you wouldn't have the culture, you definitely lose your culture. But you also don't want the toxicity of just no person side at all. all right. So we have one more interview. We really haven't talked, we talked a little bit about this Toriono interview, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this one, because obviously we're both DISC consultants, we talked a lot about DISC and so if you don't know the DISC, hopefully you learn something new on it.

You can go back and listen to the last post-match show we did for [00:39:00] season one where we talked a little bit more about the differences between DISC and some of the other personality assessments. what'd you think about that interview in general? And just as far as talking about that, how he uses the DISC, how the different personalities, the ideas of personalities and positions and how we had that back and forth on that.

what'd you think about that interview?

Paul: [00:39:16] super impressed with, Toriono and the things that he's done and seen and just some of his experiences and his references to things at a totally different level, that, I'm used to, you know, those types of players at the, highest of highest levels and clubs and whatnot.

It was very interesting to me because as we talked about. In our last show that we did together, that's kind of where I opened the can of worms and started asking questions about DISC, right. And the conversation was, Hey, it's not about which one is right. But you may need to just pick one, to help navigate knowing who you are first and then helping, you know, your team and all the other side of them, knowing who they are to help.

With their teammates and whatnot. But I think when you're Toriono and you're trying to help people fit into certain things, and he's got a rapport [00:40:00] with, with coaches and clubs, he's got to, he's got to get that right. You know, back to what we talked about earlier with. Youth clubs. And I was talking to coaches.

You can lose your reputation very quickly, but I liked some of the comparisons that you guys were trying to kind of nail down the positions that were different personalities and what that looked like. And of course me, I am not a DISC consultant at all. I'm learning from you.

But I found it. I found it interesting as you guys talked a lot about or started to talk about. You know, is that something you do with recruits? Is that because when they get here, you try to figure out who they are, what makes them tick? Those sorts of things so that you can coach them better to plug them in quicker.

But if you know that before they get here and you've got a baseline, you kind of understand how those things work. I think Toriono was that interview with Toriono did a really good job of explaining how that can really help players transition better into a program, not just for them, but for, coaches and administrators and other players.

There's some commonality there that I think really helped for me [00:41:00] help. Make a lot more sense of that.

Phil: [00:41:03] And something you just said there that kind of tie it together with the rest of this conversation we had today, mentoring is mentorship spent a big part of that. I just had the idea if you do it with recruits to be able to match them up with somebody with a similar personality when they come to the school.

Cause I'm sure you have some sort of, and I know you've talked a little bit about having the seniors and the older. mentoring the younger, but if you have a, I know this is my might be different language to some people, but if you have a high D mentoring their exact opposite, S they see the world very differently and it may not be as helpful may actually scare the S because the D comes in like, Oh yeah, you got to this and this, this, and this and that.

And there's like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, you're coming too fast. Right. And so to know that and understand that coming in. To be able to match people better. And also, as you said, to be able to you as the coach to be able to connect better, but also the players to be able to connect better. And it's not to put people in boxes and that's something I tell people very, very, very important to understand this isn't saying, even the position thing, [00:42:00] which I was joking in that interview is my, theory that I'm going to totally put out there and make millions of dollars on.

But the idea that a striker has to be a high I or a high D is just, it's silly to say that right. To say there might be naturally inclined to that, maybe. Right. Maybe true. I don't know, but to know the difference and to know how to motivate that person is critical. And I think also to how to connect with them as critical and how to mentor them is really important as well. And who would be the greatest mentor for them? if you're looking to challenge them and push them, maybe it is that opposite personality. If you're looking for them to really just be able to understand the program from their perspective, it probably would be somebody with a similar, personality.

So those are things that I really like about using the DISC, but it's interesting. You said that as far as the recruiting part, that that was the part that stuck out, because I had actually forgotten that. He said, we talked about that when you said

Paul: [00:42:53] that. Yeah. Well, I think, I think the thing that stuck out to me also in this conversation and, I know there's a variety of [00:43:00] different people that listened to the podcast, but also from a club perspective I thought it was pretty cool that no matter who he works with, it's mandatory that they do the DISC assessment.

and I know that both of you are our DISC is your thing. And we talked before, like there's more than. Yeah, this is the best one that you guys have found that you go with. But what I love about what Toriono is doing, he, absolutely believes in it, but it's become his language too.

So for him to be able to, Hey, for me to be my best for this person who I am mentoring and serving, you got to do this. Otherwise I can't help you the best that I can help you. And I kinda took that to, for myself as a leader to say, okay, what are the things that I'm doing as a leader? To kind of say the same thing, Hey, these are the things that I need from you so that I can do the best for you.

And I think as, leaders, we all should maybe take some inventory on that a little bit, or what are the things that I'm doing or maybe things that I need to do better or things that I'm not doing that folks can do before they get to me or while they're with me so that I can help them better.

You know, [00:44:00] we've always said the better. I know you as a player, the better that I can coach you and the better, you know me as a coach. the better that you can play for me type thing, and we can, relate. So those things are puzzle pieces that all kind of came together for me a little bit with Toriono's  interview. Just how dedicated he is to this, craft and how it has really kind of propelled a lot of people through him to be, successful in what they're doing.

Phil: [00:44:23] Yeah, absolutely. that that's something that I obviously, believe in that the power of the DISC to, be able to help us in our communication, in our conflict resolution and team dynamics in just really the teamwork aspects it's so great for communication. But there are other, you know, I mean, Michelle talked about using the Enneagram with her team with that it's a bit more complex, it's more introspection, but it's something that if it works, go for it, but if you want to learn more about the DISC, drop me an email, I'd love to talk with you more about how you can use it with your program, whether your youth program. I've done consulting with some youth programs.  we're looking to do some college coaches [00:45:00] as well as college programs to be able to help with that. If you're interested in it, drop me an email.

I'd love to talk with you more about it, it's something that I wouldn't talk about it if I didn't believe that it actually works. It's really interesting to see how it works and how using speaking to people. Again, I've talked about it as different languages. If you try to. Talk to somebody in, Russia, in English, usually it doesn't go very well and unless they happen to know English, if someone from Russia came to the United States, you're going to likely get a lot of blank stares. And I think a lot of times we do that with our personalities, we speak our personality and other people are going, I kind of understand what you're saying, but I'm kinda missing it.

Going back to the, even the clarity of messaging, you're a personality you're speaking. You think it's crystal clear, but other people with different personalities think. You didn't. I have no idea what you just said. So, yeah. Anyway, as we wrap up, what are you last thoughts of this show?

You know, unfortunately, man, we got a few more episodes before we're coming back. We've talked about this, I've talked about it. I even on one of our guests talked about the idea of Ted [00:46:00] Lasso, Ted Lasso, and we got to do that. And so that will, that might be like a special edition. one of these shows coming up, we're going to do it.

It's just a matter of when.

Paul: [00:46:10] I need some prep time on that one. Yeah. Because I mean, I want to really get into the weeds of and I have no problem going back and watching Ted Lasso again to get into the weeds of it. But yeah, I, I knew that was coming from you and I'm excited about doing that. I think that would be fun.

to talk through that. It seems like everybody you're talking to is has seen it and has enjoyed it. Even your, football coach friend, I think that you talked about

Phil: [00:46:32] Absolutely. it is something that Is the talk of the town for good reason.

I'm not against having to watch it again either. And I hear season two's coming out in the fall. So my, my commitment to you is that we will do it before the next season comes out. And hopefully it will be in the next couple months, I'm not going to make any promises about exactly.

I will commit that it will be before for season two comes out, unless it comes out earlier than the fall, that's the one caveat. I think we would be remiss on a show How Soccer [00:47:00] Explains Leadership to not talk about Ted Lasso in depth and the leadership lessons of that great show. all right, man. Last words. Any, books you're reading, any recommendations you have that you've been reading or other shows you've been watching that are things people should be seeing?

Paul: [00:47:14] I was going to mention, I thought one of the things that was impressive through these last four interviews is there are some great, great book recommendations. Some I've read some I haven't. Right now I'm trying to get, you know, there've been so many recommendations about Legacy. That's one that I've, finally cracked the pages of that, and then trying to get into, that.

So that's, where I am right now. So just finished a book recently, I'm trying to think of the it's called Radical by David Platt. that'll rock your world a little bit. Not sure that soccer but it could be, Hey, it's about purpose and what you're doing and all that, but take you a little insight into the things I'm reading.

But the Legacy one is one that I was like, man, a lot of people are talking about it. I want to get into that a little bit. but you brought up Michael Hyatt with Michelle Lenard just side note. He's a Baylor Bear. Just want everybody to know that Michael Hyatt is a Baylor Bear.

Somebody I'm a big fan of as well. But yeah, [00:48:00] that's, that's it, man. the reading slows down a little bit. When the girls come back in town, cause there's more going on, but that's where I am.

Phil: [00:48:06] Plus you have a bunch of boys running around too, so it's hard to, it's hard to read. Actual reading too, you know, that's

Paul: [00:48:11] why, and I will say, I do believe that Audible is reading and that is what legacy is, is Audible.

Phil: [00:48:16] Amen. Amen to that. I fully concur with that. assessment of what entails reading, if it didn't, I wouldn't read anything. well actually maybe two books a year, but you know, the one show that I don't know if you've seen it, It's not a soccer show, but it again is something that you'd never expect a show on chess to be a great lesson in leadership and teamwork.

But that show, I'd say mostly the teamwork side is. It's a great show. It's called the Queen's Gambit and it's on Netflix. And somebody had told me about it. It's a little dark, especially in the beginning, but it's a show that I'm not going to ruin it for you. I'm not going to be a [00:49:00] spoiler, but there are teamwork lessons, particularly in the last few episodes that are well worth it.

You won't be disappointed. I mean, I hope, I hope you won't, you shouldn't be. If

Paul: [00:49:09] you have any, if you are let Phil know at info@howsoccerexplainsleadership.com

Phil: [00:49:14] exactly. Tell me how I'm wrong and how I'm an idiot and I wasted your time. But if not, tell me what you enjoyed about it. Also, I want to make sure that you guys out there, If you have ideas of people who you'd like to see on this show, share them at that same email address.

I mean, Paul was joking about getting literally anything, any thoughts you have about anything on this stuff? Send me an email. I'd love to continue that conversation offline with you. if you want to learn more about any of these things, if you want to connect with some of these coaches inappropriate ways, obviously I can do my best to help you out with that as well.

I don't want the conversation to end here. I want it to continue. And if you have people that you think would be great, including yourself, reach out to me and let me know, join the Facebook group. I just actually pose that same question on the Facebook [00:50:00] group today.

If you have other people to do that. So join the Facebook group, how soccer explains leadership. We also have a page, but the group is where we're going to go deeper into conversation. Page is more informational. So again, If you have anything to offer love to hear it from you. But most importantly, right now, we just are hoping that you're taking everything you're learning from this show from this halftime show that Paul and I were able to do from the other episodes that we're able to do, and you take it all and you help it to improve your leadership and use it to help you understand how soccer explains life and leadership.

Thanks a lot. Have a great week.