Leading from the Middle with Glenn Crooks, TV/Radio Broadcaster, Journalist, and Soccer Coach

Phil: [00:00:00] Welcome back to How Soccer Explains Leadership. Thanks again for your download. Again, this is Phil Darke. I am your host for this show. And today we have on with us Glenn Crooks, the radio voice of New York City FC. He's also the former Rutgers Women's Soccer Head Coach. And there's a whole lot more to him than that, that we're going to get into in a minute here.

But before we do, I just want to remind you if you haven't done so already to subscribe to this show, go ahead and hit that subscribe button, wherever you're listening, as well as join the Facebook group. If you haven't done so already, if you do want to go deeper into the conversations that we're having on this show.

So without more on that, just preliminary stuff, Glenn, how are you doing?

Glenn: [00:00:45] I am. Okay. Despite the wintry conditions here in central New Jersey all is cool.

Phil: [00:00:52] Well, it's, not much different out here in Northern California. I think last night we had half of our trees flying off the tree.

It actually pruned my tree [00:01:00] pretty well. But unfortunately our fence did not blow down, so we don't get the insurance to get us a new fence, but you know, you can't, you can only wish. So, as I usually start here, I love hearing your story. I know some of the people listening in may know you, but I'm sure quite a few of them don't. And so, I'd love to just, have you share your story, particularly how you became passionate about soccer, leadership, and really where it's led you?

Glenn: [00:01:22] Yeah, I grew up in a town Basking Ridge, New Jersey at a time where soccer was not very prevalent. I was a huge baseball fan, a huge Yankees fan. I still love baseball. I love all sports. So, I was a sports person. My dad was a musician but was also a great athlete. And I think I got a little of both.

I played trumpet. That's one of the little-known facts about me, but I haven't played it. Seriously in a very long time, but if I pick one up, I could play a few notes. and one thing that I really, really fell in love with as a kid was the radio. And I'm from the era where you had a transistor, you brought it into the game and you listen to, Phil [00:02:00] Rizutto call the Yankee game while you were at the game in the Bronx watching it.

And at night it was always, I had the radio on, you know, I know Larry King just passed recently. I don't know how many people knew that Larry King, you know, he made his mark on radio overnights and he would interview authors. And I was just fascinated, and I liked the idea that you couldn't.

You just had to picture people. You couldn't see them, so things have changed an awful lot, but I fell in love with a radio, and I went to college at the University of Georgia.  I went to I wanted to be on the radio. I wanted to be a disc jockey, but it turned out I became a sportscaster.

Full-time when I got out of school and all during that, I started falling in love with the game of soccer because in high school some of my best friends played. And again, I had the baseball thing, but I kind of evolved over towards soccer while I was working in radio. I Ended up being the first girls’ soccer coach at Ridge High, where I went to school.

So I started the program there and then I said, well, let's try this on the collegial level. So I quit broadcasting and [00:03:00] started coaching college, did that for 25 years. And then it's a tough job. And, I was getting to the age where, I don't want to just keep doing the same thing. So, it evolved back into broadcasting.

Things have changed an awful lot since the time I started. And that's, what's brought me to today. I mean, my first gig was Sirius XM FC, which is a 24 seven soccer channel on Sirius XM. And I co-hosted a world cup coverage, 2015, the women with Michelle Akers, who's a legendary figure in the game.

And so I was back on the air and then the, the New York City FC gig. What was really cool about that is the program director at WFAN in New York, where the games were going to be carried was my boss at WDHA in New Jersey in the early eighties when I got out of college and started working radio.

So one thing led to another, and that led me to doing, which has been one of the more cool gigs I've ever done. Both home and away matches for New York city FC in MLS. And I still get to coach. I retired from Rutgers, but I coach at the [00:04:00] player's development Academy, PDA here in Jersey, one of the top clubs in the country.

And my show on SiriusXM FC is called The Coaching Academy. It's all about coaching education, player development. I've had some unbelievable guests on over the years. And so, I'm deeply, deeply involved in the sport when I grew up hoping to play second base for the Yankees, but, you know, that's the way it goes sometimes.

Phil: [00:04:23] You know, it's funny how we get led in certain directions and it ends up going a lot of different places and it's just all really cool. I love, I love to just all the different ways that people can learn from you after today, if they love hearing this. And then now I haven't checked out those other things.

We'll have all that in the show notes to be able to go and find all those other interviews that you've been able to do. That's, what's so cool about this podcasting thing is it's all out there for us to go grab and be able to, just learn from each other. And as you said that the education, the coaches education, player development, that's why we're doing what we're doing.

I think to get as much of this out there for people as [00:05:00] possible from different minds to be able to learn from each other. And yeah, and hopefully,

Glenn: [00:05:03] I do have a bit of a baseball advice in order to play professionally, you have to hit a curve ball. So, thankfully, I couldn't hit the curve and I got involved in soccer.

Phil: [00:05:12] You know, it's funny you say that because I was literally having a conversation with someone two days ago about my baseball career ended when I was 15 years old. I too was a second baseman, also played third base and catcher, but really where I played in the field didn't matter because once the pitcher started throwing curve balls over the plate, my career in baseball was over.

So, it sounds like we got quite a bit in common there. I agree with that that advice for anybody out there, that curve balls an important pitch to hit as is the change up in the slider and the split and all those other things.  But that wasn't really what was my downfall. we could go on and on, I'm sure about baseball too, but today, we are talking about soccer and really a lot of what you've learned.

I have no doubt over your career that you've just talked about there, you've had some amazing conversations with great leaders. [00:06:00] You've coached some great leaders. And really, I just wanted to ask you in a really in your coaching career at Rutgers, and if it, if he wants to be somebody else outside of that in the interviews you've done in the coaches, that you've been a part of in their lives, but who is really the best leader and it could be a conglomeration of a few, but if there was one best leader that you played with or that played with you and really what made her a great leader?

Glenn: [00:06:20] Yeah. Well from players, I've coached and there's no hesitation here. it's a young woman named Meg Ryan who recently had a baby. She came to our camp at Rutgers when she was a junior in high school. And she was like the pied piper, you know, everybody just followed her around and I remember, we had been recruiting her at the time too.

She was a center back and she spent a week at this camp. It was an overnight camp. And I just remember saying at the end of the week, I said, we've got to get this kid. I've just, there are natural leaders, part of it's personality, part of it's confidence. And I mentioned Meg also because at the end of her playing career, I said, you've got to get involved [00:07:00] in coaching. In fact, you need to coach here. I wanted to keep her, and she wanted to go back home to Maryland and maybe try to find something there. So we were fortunate to keep her on the staff. First as a volunteer then as a second assistant, which was a full-time position. And now since I retired, she became the associate head coach, Michael O'Neill, who was my associate head is the head coach there now.

And what she's done both on the collegiate and club level, she, won a national championship on the club level and what's I don't want to say unique, but it's important to properly lead where your demands are met. You're demanding you demand discipline, but you also care for the players in a way where they will do anything for you.

And that's the quality that she has. So. You know, I've learned from her. I learned from players. I learned from coaches. I learned from people in the business community. I learned from friends. I think the biggest thing that I've probably take it away over the years and because I wasn't a very good listener early on in my life is that listening, [00:08:00] absorbing and, and understanding that anybody you come in contact with has something to offer.

And I truly believe that I don't care what age. I don't care what their background is. they've got something to offer. Cause everybody's experienced things that you haven't. And so I like to listen and you know, sometimes you take it away and use it, and sometimes you don't.

Phil: [00:08:20] Yeah, it's funny.

You talked about the Meg Ryan. I mean, well, it just made me think of the actress and I all the time. and I was thinking of goose and all that. So anyway, my mind wandered a bit during that answer. I'm not gonna lie, but then what, how you described her was really cool because what you basically described there was that level five leader that Jim Collins talks about in his books.

Really that mixture of the professional will and the humility. And so you have that. That demand for excellence, that professional will, that we want the best out of you because we know you have the best, but also on the other side of it is it, is that care for the others. It is that posture of humility is that posture of learning where people know that you actually are [00:09:00] listening to them and you care about them.

That starts with the humble posture, that in a learning posture that you described afterwards as well, that we have so much to learn from each other. And we also have the ability to, to encourage and build up each other. So they can be the best because sometimes certain personalities, you talk about personalities that are natural born leaders that we talk about, but there's also personalities that get crushed.

Sometimes if you don't care for them as their person if you push them, to that higher level in a way that they misinterpret. So is that something that you've seen, is that something that you saw? I mean, obviously in her, as you described her, I imagine she kinda towed that line pretty well.

Glenn: [00:09:37] Yeah. And I a couple of things that you said there One of my favorite quotes is from John Wooden. And it's what you learn after, you know, it, all that counts. And I think that's, the quality that you need to have as a leader. I say as a coach, I say, as an athlete, like if I have a stubborn athlete, I've done this more than once, because I read that quote, reading something about Wooden years ago [00:10:00] and it struck me personally also.

But if you have a kid, you know, kids tend to, you know, at times think they know it all. So you just sit down and you say, look, look at the philosopher, John Wooden, and you throw that quote at somebody and they think about it. And then they look at you and go like, okay, what can I say? You know, so I, it's just such a, the humility aspect of it is really vital, but at the same time there's a certain edge and there's a certain ego that you need.

And that comes from confidence that Look, I, I don't, I've never claimed, I don't know. I know I haven't been the best leader over my career because there's certain qualities that I didn't really think about or discover until later in life. And I'll tell you doing this show on Sirius XM, where I've, I've gone through so many different kinds of people and through different sports as well, who talk about some of the things that they do to not just motivate athletes, but to teach them.

And that's such a huge thing right now, the teaching element of the game, we've talked about that. I don't recall ever really talking about that much early in my coaching career and only over [00:11:00] the last five years or so. I has it really become like at the forefront that the teaching element, just like the classroom teachers, some of those techniques.

Phil: [00:11:08] Yeah. And let's dive into that a little bit. I want to mind that a bit with, with, you know, as you've matured over your coaching careers, you talked about just there, you've seen that, really there were some different change in focus, really? Maybe not. I mean, obviously you don't stop talking about the X's and O's, you don't stop talking about the tactics.

You don't stop talking about all that stuff, but there's, as you grow as a coach, as you mature as a human being as you learn in that, as you said, after, you know, everything, what are you learning? What are some of those things that now you focused on? Are you focused on like specifics that we can learn from?

And others can learn from that maybe are young in their career who are sitting there going, I just got to win so I can keep my job. But at the end of the day, what are the other things that are important that you've seen from the other side of that?

Glenn: [00:11:52] Well, if I could Stay on the teaching side of things.

What are the guests I had early on in the existence of my show was a guy named Doug Lemov [00:12:00] who instructs for us soccer in their A, B, and now pro license and what he did and I had him on and he described to me what he did in one of his classes. With, the top pro coaches here in America, pro soccer coaches is he showed clips of middle school or Kestrel director.

And what it was is how he was interacting with them while they were we're training their parts as a unit. And some of the words that he was using, it was really quite fascinating. And he admitted to me that he was nervous too. He wasn't sure what kind of reaction he was going to get from, you know, like Jason Kreis and Peter Vermes and all these guys that were in the classroom.

And he was very pleased at the response was very positive. But again, there were a lot of successful coaches in that room. And one of the reasons they're successful is that they come into things like that with an open mind. So, A[00:13:00] Coach's Guide to Teaching. That's his latest book, Doug Lemov anybody listening and not just as a coach, but as a parent, all kinds of things.

It's really an exceptional book. And the last chapter is on developing a team culture and he spent a lot of time with Jessie Marsch while Marsch he's at Salzburg now in Austria, the former New York Red Bulls coach, former Princeton university assistant to Bob Bradley. You know, Jessie Marsch right now is one of these guys, it's an American who's having success in Europe as a coach, which is pretty rare.

Yeah. And so, he talked about the time he spent with Marsch too. So, that teaching element is something and the words you used. And I think that's probably, I really think before I go to a training session or, I'm thinking about the words I'm going to use and I'm consistent with those words so that when game time comes and.

Players hear very little right. Players hear very little of what the coach is screaming from the sideline. You see all us nutty people on the sidelines, screaming and [00:14:00] players don't hear it. But if you have certain words or phrases that you could shout and it's meaningful to them in certain situations, because you've trained it those are the kinds of things, that is not an X's and O's thing that's going beyond that, it's taking what you're doing and giving it some more meaning in these critical and sometimes, tense situations.

So, I could go on for a while, but that's an example of, how I feel like I've developed as a coach.

Phil: [00:14:26] Yeah. And it's interesting you say that because that goes on and really into every area of life. Right? I mean, when you talk about parenting, we talk about marriage. When you talk about running an organization, there are certain things, you know, as you said, they don't hear everything, you're yelling at them.

Like I just think about my kids, right. I feel like I'm yelling at the wall half the time, or with, organizations where a boss will come in and, it's like the peanuts, you know, show with Right. But when you develop that culture and you have certain words and you have certain things that are meaning one of the guys in the earlier episode on this has, he has "Touch the Line" with his kids now, He took [00:15:00] directly from soccer where it means finished the job, right. When he says that his kids know exactly what he means when you're a coach and you can develop almost your internal lingo and you can say certain things and all of a sudden it clicks on in that person, what we want to do at that moment.

It's amazing. And if you can have that, that's an incredible skill as a leader, to be able to do that as well, to be able to have that language, that means something completely different to your team, or it could be obvious, but it's not something you necessarily think about, but it's how do you get the team to that point?

And that would be something that, it'd be interesting. I don't know if you've really thought about that. As I think about it, I'm just curious how you were able to get your team to that point, because it's not like you just say at once. Boom. They got it.

How are you able to establish that in your team culture?

Glenn: [00:15:45] Well, it's in training. I mean, so you're trying to utilize words in training. Let's say it's people have different ways for describing tuck in recover. You know, there's certain terminology, pushup, you know, established [00:16:00] with.

So I say something like I just say, fix your shape. Now we've trained it where we'll stop training. And I'll see that they're a little too compact on the attack and we've practiced, where they might be better off in certain situations. So now during the course of a game, if I see that again, there may be two compacted, certain situations, and they're in certain parts of the field that we've trained.

I could just scream out, fix your shape. And you'll, it's, it's unbelievable. It's just like, boom, boom. and they recognize, they look around, they find the pockets, they find the width. That's where they need to be. They drop a little deeper if they're a center back to, to provide that sort of support.

So it's That's an example of how my teams know what I, when I say, fix your shape, they just look around and they fix their shape and make it so that you know, we try to play with a big shape and, if it gets too compact and, and what's really satisfying is the moments where somebody on the pitch recognize it and she [00:17:00] shouts fix your shape.

That's when you've really taken the next step. I mean, that's, that's next level. When the, when the players recognize it, they use your language and it's impactful for the team.

Phil: [00:17:11] Yeah. And that's just a great leadership principle all the way around is as far as you, if you can get it to the point where you as a leader are training it into your people and it's becoming part of their culture, and then they are actually using the same language in a way that isn't your language, but it's their language.

And that they are actually doing the things that you're talking about as just natural course. And it becomes where they are enforcing it themselves. That's, that's where we all want to get as leaders.  and that, kind of leads into the next thing I'd like to talk about, unless you have anything else on that.

Glenn: [00:17:40] Well, the other thing I, you know, jotted something down while we were talking and this is really kind of different. So I'm just, I'll just take it there and then yeah, go for it. If, if it's awkward to where you wanted to transition to, it's not necessarily a great segue, but the other thing I've learned over the years, and I want to mention this because I [00:18:00] think we should all, it shouldn't just be soccer people that we learned from.

So, Dean Smith, the late Dean Smith, one of the great basketball. I know I mentioned John wooden earlier Dean Smith wrote a book and I was very taken by one section, it's, you're always, you're trying to empower. That's the big word now to empower your team, empower your team, allow them to make decisions and how do you do that?

And he had a really simple formula. it wasn't necessarily empowering them to decide how they would structure their inbounds play in training or practice. But when they went on the road, he would let them maybe choose the whole here's three hotels. We could go to choose. One of the hotels decide as a leadership group.

What do you here's, here's kind of what we need to eat, but you guys make the menu and make sure, you know, it's nutritious and and just like we have three hours on this day to do something extracurricular. Why don't you guys get together and decide what we want to do? And then, and then we'll do it as a [00:19:00] unit.

So he had these ways of making the team feel like they were making a lot of the decisions within the program, even though when it came to the basketball,  he was very much in charge. So I remember taking that and, say, this is a perfect way. Cause teams respond when they feel like it's their team, you know, they have something to gain from it.

And that was a, and again it's from another coach from a different sport. And I think so many people have so much to offer that way.

Phil: [00:19:29] Absolutely. I mean, that's ownership. I mean, if you have that ownership, you want to have buy in, but you also want to have ownership.

And if you have buy-in without ownership, sometimes it's missing in the team. And to have that both/and is so incredibly important and that's a great example. I'd love that. It's it's little things, but it's, it's that choice, Well, and for

Glenn: [00:19:47] women, I coach women and they're very particular about their uniforms and the gear they get.

So what I would do is  bring the captains in and I said, if you want to form a little committee to an a point, I don't care what you wear. I [00:20:00] really don't as long as it's neat. And and it's within the school colors. So,  they would also pick what they wore the boots that they wanted to order, those sorts of things.

So, it wasn't that difficult and it was kind of a pleasure, you know? Yeah. It made you feel good?

Phil: [00:20:14] Absolutely. And I remember that last year, actually, with our girls soccer team, it was the shorts. I mean, it's short seem to be always like the thorn in the side of a girl's uniform and they were too long or they're, you know, I don't think they were ever too short for them, but they're too long or they're too tight or they're this or that.

And so again, yeah, we brought them in and said, all right, let us know what shorts you want. And let's, let's not let that be a sticking point. So, but now, as I'm glad you went there, cause I was, that's so important. That's a great, very, very important leadership lesson. I think at all levels of whatever you're doing, even with your.

Like I was talking about, even in all the way down to parenting from organizational leadership down to parenting you want to give where there can be choice, give that choice and where there are things that are, that need to be, your authority needs to be the, you know, put the foot [00:21:00] down, then you put the foot down, but if it can be a choice why not make it that choice that gives them that ownership where they feel like they are, they have agency in it which is, which is really important.

Glenn: [00:21:08] Well and Phil and, and just, again on the topic of listening to people from different walks of life.

So I really had a cool experience for me, both as a coach at a broadcaster, I had 45 minutes with the Greg Berhalter one-on-one and. I thought the most interesting thing he said out of the interview, you know, we talked about everything, you had dual nationals, all the different things that he's partaking with and all, you know, this congested scheduling.

So those things are certainly you know, Tyler Adams, Weston McKinney, Christian Pulisic. But the most interesting thing he said is that he's currently involved in being involved in sessions with the Cleveland Indians and it's on leadership. And he said, you know, it's an organization that's trying to get better all the time.

He said, it's really fascinating. And I, I don't remember exactly how we stumbled on it, but here he is like every Monday night or whatever it is [00:22:00] once a week, on with the staff of the Cleveland Indians with, someone in a leadership realm, Jose Mourinho did a one-on-one recently with this guy, Joe Cummings, former President of the United Soccer Coaches, which is the largest coaches association in the world.

And Mourinho, at one point he goes, yeah, people might not know this, but I'm a huge Formula One fan. And he said, and the reason he brought it up is because he and his assistance, he invited a formula. He just said a big guy, a big guy in formula one, and his team. He invited them into his office with his staff so that they could go over how they operated as a team formula one.

So. You know, people weren't successful by accident, and I think, Mourinho, we have this I think we have this picture of him that, he probably wouldn't listen to anybody, you know, but Casey brings in, is this formula one driver and his team to talk about how they operate and how he's going to incorporate some of the things he learned from them into his own [00:23:00] program.

So he's still learning every day, too.

Phil: [00:23:03] I think that’s a good example because even the people that we think are beyond, you know, they think they know it all theirs is pretty much always for any person out there I've found there's someone they'll listen to. You just got to figure out who that person is and help them to get them in there.

Right. So it may not be you to get across to somebody, but they're going to listen to somebody. Can you find that somebody to be able to impact and influence that person? I think that's a good coaching lesson as well, is that you may not be the best person to get through to one of your players. It may be one of your assistant coaches and maybe another player that you know, can kind of be your interpreter.

Right. And so that formula one guy is doing something that maybe no other. Football coach could do with Mourinho, right? Maybe no other person could hit him like that, that formula one guy. And so I think that that is something that I've seen a lot in my leadership is sometimes I'm not the best person to talk to these people.

I'm not the best person to you know, to be able to get the message across that needs to get across at that moment. I think too many coaches try to be all things to all people [00:24:00] when they really, and leaders for that matter when they may not be the best person for that. So is that, I mean, is that something you've seen firsthand?

Glenn: [00:24:08] Yeah, and I think one of my better qualities over the years has been to I like surrounding myself. I've never been someone who needed to take the credit for something. So I have no problem. Like for instance, at Rutgers, Michael O'Neill, who's now the head coach, it would be remiss of me not to allow him to be the lead trainer of the team because he's exceptional.

I mean, he's one of the best in the country. And so while we would organize training together he did a bulk of the, in the trenches type stuff. I was there as well. I would work with small groups. Sometimes I would take the team, no question about it, but we developed that over time.

And it was the best way for us to operate and we were, Quite successful. So I think coaches need to surround themselves. And most of the coaches I talked to do just that they understand that they need to have [00:25:00] people in their program that have qualities that offset their own.

Right. It's just like you have two center backs, one needs to be a ball winner and the other needs to be able to finesse and pass the ball, you know, and that's, those are complimentary positions. I it's the same for a coaching staff. you want to have people who have strengthened in different areas and you might find this interesting, Phil, City Football Group,

I do New York City FC games and that's part of the City Football Group. And they have a guy named Carey Bawley, who is a, I forget what his title is, but it's like director of coach support, something like that for all the satellite clubs, which now there are, I think are 10 in that umbrella under City Football Group led by Manchester City.

And one of Carey's responsibilities. I had a chance to interview him and I thought it was pretty cool. And I see how the New York city staff has been formulated, but instead of like, Ronnie Diala's the head coach, instead of Ronnie Diala just bringing in four of his assistants, who is dedicated assistance and just [00:26:00] bringing them in City Football Group, manipulated the staff in a way where they wanted to have different qualities within that group.

So, it's just one year in, so it's a work in progress, but it'll be interesting to see how that falls out, but I think that, and that's the way they operate with all their satellite clubs trying to form staffs, not necessarily with buddies, but with people who compliment each other and, it's the only way to go, I think.

Phil: [00:26:26] Yeah. you're speaking, my language here, I'm a DISC consultant certified in that as well. We talk a lot about it on this show, too. And to know that every great team is going to have a great blend of all the different personalities and the different makeups of different styles.

If you don't, you're gonna be missing something and it will be a blind spot for your team, for your staff. And you definitely want that coaching staff and your players for that matter. you want to have a good mix, a good, they compliment each other, not just on the field, but in personalities as well.

you want to have that fun one. You want to have the one who's going to just bring everyone to the point when it's necessary, you want the people who are a bit more [00:27:00] cautious, not too many of them because you don't want a bunch of naysayers, but you know, then you need those people to just kind of follow the, the leader in a way that isn't a doormat, but is a way that is, Hey, we're just going to be the foot soldiers to get this thing done.

And to have that on a team is so important that obviously simplifies it a ton, but that idea of the complimentary on us coaching staff to add in your recruiting as a coach or. Organizationally. to be able to have that in an organization is really, really important. So, yeah. I love that.

I love just even hearing about how they did that in, in that city football group, as a, as a United fan, I, you know, hope that the United to doing that as well, but we can only hope maybe, takes me back to the, the point, we were going to get to a few minutes ago, but I'm glad we went down this rabbit trail, which wasn't really a rabbit trail, was a lot of great stuff that no doubt we can learn from, but really the idea and this I'm glad we did, because this segue is probably better than it did before into the, just really the good teammate, like a solid, great teammate as you saw.

And you talked about the great leaders, but you know, we talk about those foot soldiers. We talk about those other ways, [00:28:00] but I love to talk about the idea and the concept of leading from the middle or leading from within and. And I know you've seen that in your career and you've seen it in another, in other areas, like you said, learning from other sports and known from of our past conversations.

We talked about this. But how have you seen players lead they're maybe not the captain then maybe not even playing, but they're be able to lead the team.

Glenn: [00:28:21] Well, there's a couple of examples. I'll tell one before I get to my own personal cause it's just, I just I just interviewed Jordan Morris prior to his departure for Swansea formerly of the Seattle Sounders.

And well he was being loaned, so I guess he's still property of the Sounders and just had this great opportunity to interview four national team players at the same time, too, on the women's side, too, on the men's it was Jordan Morris, Tyler Adams, crystal Dunn, and Kelly O'Hara. And we were talking about adversity and one of the things that came up from one of the players was, when they weren't playing, how difficult it was, crystal Dunn was talking about getting cut from the 2015 [00:29:00] world cup team and how she responded to that, and obviously it was favorable because she was on the Olympic team the next year.

and then became an integral part of the 2019 championship team. So then Jordan Morris chimed in and said, yeah, he, his example was he had a teammate at Stanford, one of his best friends who was the second string goalkeeper and never played, never played. And he said the way he conducted himself day in and day out people looked up to him and respected him and he said it was so important to the team fabric.

And he said, fortunately for him. It was a year after Jordan graduated that next year is very his senior year. This kid that looked like he was never going to play, became the starting keeper and they won a national championship. So he was rewarded at the end of the day, I had a player named Jamie Komar who is is now Jamie Komar, Freeman, Hunter Freeman of professional, former professional player.

Now in the FC Cincinnati scouting organization. She [00:30:00] played for me at Rutgers and her first two years, a really good athlete needed to maybe learn the game a little bit better. But a tremendous kid and someone who was, I know it ticked off that she wasn't playing over those first two years, but we communicated and, but she handled it the right way.

She just kept training hard and every day knowing that, And hoping that she would someday earn her a chance. Well, our junior year she became a regular her senior year. She was captain of the team. Here's a kid that barely played their first two years. A lot of kids in those situations would transfer or quit.

And to this day I stay in contact with Jamie and we've talked about it, since she's gone, you know, how hard it was for her, but she didn't disrupt the team. She didn't disrupt the team. So I think of Jamie almost first because it's somebody who, again, like, Jordan Morris' Stanford teammate eventually, she was rewarded.

And then the best example of why was at Rutgers was in another sport. There was an, I'm sorry, I don't [00:31:00] remember her name, but I can picture her. And it was, this is like, Close to 20 years ago, 15 to 20 years ago with our Rutgers women's basketball under Vivian stringer. This young lady never played, never play.

I mean, she might've gotten an, a one game in her entire career, but she stayed with it. And her teammates unanimously voted her captain over the last two years because they respected how hard she worked at it, how much off the court she would help her teammates. Sometimes if they, you know, she was like, for many of them, the go to player, if they were in some sort of crisis.

So she, had all these qualities of leadership yet. She never played. And those were some of the most successful basketball teams, final four national final under Vivian stringer that Rutgers women's basketball has ever had. And captain by Someone who never played. Yeah. You know, and that's those are, that was, you know, I don't know about you, but man, when I wasn't playing, I wasn't as gracious.

[00:32:00] I and that's when it's kids, you know, these are kids and they're handling it that way. It, it speaks. So it speaks so highly of their character, you know, because it is difficult. Absolutely. And it's hard as a coach, you know, the kids that don't play, if you don't communicate with them and make them still feel, how do you make a kid still feel confident, even though they think, well, you're not playing me.

So I guess you don't trust me. And so you have to constantly cater to that. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, there's no exact formula for that one. And not every, player can handle it on a professional level as well. How many professionals go in and demand trades.

They're not demanding trades because they're playing every minute. They're demanding trades because they're not playing that's right. Or they're not making enough money, I guess.

Phil: [00:32:45] Yeah. Yeah. Professional game. It gets a, it was a few different reasons, but you talk about transfers. you're not transferring because you're playing every minute.

Typically, I mean, there might be some exceptions to the rule, but that goes to the, really, the idea of leadership is influence. Right. I mean, leadership is not a title. [00:33:00] Leadership is not the captain band leadership is, you know, usually they pick the captain because they're a leader, but sometimes the coaches pick a captain because they score a lot of goals or something, but they may not be a leader at all.

And then you have somebody on the bench who is the leader of that team from the bench which happens. And the mean you talked about there with that Rutgers basketball player that happens more than we think I've seen it happen in my teams. I've had many non captains who I've gone up to during the seasons and say, Hey, you know what?

You don't have that band, but you're the leader of this team. And you have a responsibility to be able to do that and what a great privilege to be able to do that. And they take it and they run with it. And they're able to, you know, as a coach, I think you have the ability to speak into that too, because what you want are leaders.

It doesn't matter what titles are and hopefully an organization, you see that too. I mean, titles or titles, but I've seen a lot of organizations run by people who don't have the CEO title. And it's not necessarily healthy, super healthy organizations, but not necessarily a bad thing if someone's leading it.

And they're able to actually influence that organization to be healthy from within. [00:34:00] And those are people that at the end of the day in a healthy culture, as you said, you surround yourself with people smarter and better than you in there in different areas. If you have that, you're going to have those leaders pop up.

And as a leader to champion that rather than to see it as a threat is massive as well.

Glenn: [00:34:16] and generally the leaders of your team are playing a lot generally. Sure. And I think this is some way that a coach can have influence because players won't automatically do this or recognize it, especially young people again.

But if you are. As Jordan Morris recognized with his best friend, ‘cause he said his teammates really encourage this young man who was not playing ever. I think it's important for those who are playing a lot of minutes for those who were playing few or no minutes. And they still come into training every day and push that They push me, I'm the striker. I play 90 minutes. I scored goals, but if I don't have, the reserve pushing me each day, then maybe my level is not increasing [00:35:00] in training, which allows me to do what I do on, game day. So it's incumbent on those that are full-time players to make certain. That they make every effort, whether it's taking a kid out for a coffee or just Pat them on the back, whatever it is, making sure that they understand that you appreciate them being there every day.

And I'll tell you what, it's, it's better for the team. It makes the coach's job a lot easier when it comes to decisions. And I think that's a huge responsibility, not just of leaders, per se, but of players to play full time that they recognize the, people around them. And it, college, youth sports, college just rough, you know, you're in college soccer, you got these rosters of 26 to 30, 32, whatever it is, the rosters now are huge because of the pandemic and the NCAA extending, you know, seniors can play an extra semester, things like that without losing their eligibility.

So I've talked to so many coaches I'm trying to place by players in the college programs or help them. And so many programs are in the thirties now. [00:36:00] So, you know, you start with 11. If generally you're not, playing 20 in a game, you know, you might be playing 15, 16, 17, somewhere in there.

So that's 13, 14, 15 kids, every game that aren't playing. So, that's one of the more difficult things to manage and. Great leadership is recognizing what those people are doing, not just the coach, but also to players.

Phil: [00:36:22] Yeah, definitely like my daughter's team has, I think 38 kids next year.

It's just, it's insane. I don't know. How do you, how do you even manage that? So speaking of coach, I'd be remiss to not ask this, given the fact that, you've, named quite a few people that you've learned from just by being able to interview them. You've also learned from people and coaches by studying 'em like John Wooden, like you talked about I'm going to take John Wooden out of it because that's way too easy.

What, what coach do you respect the most if there is one or maybe a couple that in terms of their leadership and really what sets them apart? is similar to the question I asked earlier about the players, but with the coaches, just for whether it's from interviewing them, just knowing them or, or [00:37:00] reading about them, who would you say in all your experience?

Glenn: [00:37:02] I do have a goal someday to interview Pep Guardiola because he is in the City Football Group. And since I'm, working for a club in that group I've tried. And so far it hasn't worked out. He didn't, you know, he's not available for interviews very frequently other than, the post game stuff or the pregame, but I'm talking about a one-on-one.

And then so I'm going to mention him and then the And somebody from the NFL Bill Belichek, who I met once, because his son played lacrosse at Rutgers and I bumped into him one day and said, what are you doing here? You know, I you know, I coach soccer, what are you doing here? And he goes, well, they were on a bye week or something, you know?

So he was down there visiting his son. He was right out outside of the locker room. But the thing from Belichek, cause I'm sure he's got many books or a couple, I don't know, but I, I don't even remember the title of the book. What I do remember vividly is the success of his teams. You know, he could take a guy like Randy Moss and make him a team player.

So it was like, he. [00:38:00] and I only say that because Moss's reputation was, it was all about him, you know? so he comes in from the Viking. I think it was from the Vikings. I've lost track of all that, but so everyone, no matter what their salary was, if they were the quarterback, if they were the, second string tight end they were all treated equally in every aspect of the program.

And I just remember reading quotes from players in this book that said that's why the program sustained over the years. he sustained a program over the years and outside of this year, I guess it's no coincidence. He lost Brady. But outside of this year, I mean the level of consistency and success with teams he has coached is immense.

And it's this consistency of how he treats everyone in the same manner, whether the superstar. Or the kid that just came in out of college. that's one thing. and I respect Belichek out that I'm a New York jets fan since 1964. So, I hate new England, so I can't, it's very tough.

But I respect Belichek. How can you [00:39:00] not respect Tom Brady? My goodness. And especially now that I'm an old guy, he's an old guy. So, you know, you always root for the old guys in pro sports and then Guardiola. I mean, he there was who just did this art, Sam Lee, I believe in the athletic.

So anybody listening, if you get the athletic, it's a subscription, it's paywall. What are you going to do? But if you liked the sport, I would pay for it. It's like four 99 a month. I think something like that. And he just did a feature on Pep Guardiola who just turned 50 years old.

So when he, the way he did it, he kind of did it when he was 30, when he was 40, when he was 50. And what will he be like when he's 60? So it was really interesting, but I think that the thing I gleaned from Guardiola, who I'm a huge fan of, because he came to England at Man City and all these pundits who, including guys on the TV, including guys you see every weekend, we're so critical of him and saying, you can't do what you did at Barcelona.

And Bayern Munich [00:40:00] here in the English Premier League, can't do it. It's the there's too much pace. The second balls, you know, all these different things. And he struggled his first year and that's when they were all criticizing him. Well guess what? Second year it went pretty well. Right? You know you win the EPL. and he basically, I remember a quote saying where he just said. You know, boys, I'm not going to change. And he said that in his first year, and he was talking to the media and a good thing. He didn't, but the one thing you learn, and if you read this article, it's really interesting. He admits to adapting, he adapted, but it wasn't as evident to us because we're not inside his brain.

And many of us do not see the game the same way this guy is. I think he's a genius. I think he's a genius because not only does he see the game and can set up his team for success and take whatever players you give him and put them positionally in their best spots. But he's a motivator and players understand that he cares about them as [00:41:00] people at which we said right at the outset, I think of this.

And so those two Come to mind immediately,

Phil: [00:41:04] So let's say tomorrow you get a call and they say, Hey, you got one question you can ask Pep and your interviews in a half hour, what are you going to ask him?

Glenn: [00:41:14] Well, I'm going to ask him something tactical because especially with the the recent rule change where on goal kicks, you can send her back skin or Eddie, your players could come inside the area to start the build up.

And apparently he's got anywhere between 10 and 20 methods for building out of the back. So I would probably ask him to specify each one of those. And there's so much more I'd want to ask you.

Phil: [00:41:42] Yeah, that’s an unfair question. That's like saying, what's your favorite movie?

Glenn: [00:41:44] I had a piece. I had a piece of Pep, but it wasn't Pep himself, but Domenec Turrant was the Head coach for New York City FC for a year and a half.

And he was he was Pep's Lieutenant at Barcelona, Bayern Munich and at [00:42:00] Manchester City before he came to New York City FC. So I got, I'm on the road with New York City FC for these broadcasts. And I got to know Domenec very well and, hotel after a game and or night before a game, whatever he's down there.

So we had quite a few conversations about inverted fullbacks and things like that.  So I got a taste of it, you know, I got a piece of it, but it wasn't Pep.

Phil: [00:42:23] He didn’t have the cool, you know, I mean, it probably was a cool accent, but it probably wasn't, that Pep, talking super, always excited.

Glenn: [00:42:28] Yeah. Actually Domenec struggled with the language a little bit. It was getting better at the end, but then he left and he went to. Brazil, and now he's no longer there and he actually, he's a free agent right now. I thought he'd be back at MLS by now, but we'll see.

Phil: [00:42:40] All right. I got a question for you.

We have a few more questions. I got one when I want to start asking coaches a little bit more, but one is from a leadership perspective, what is one thing that if your players at the end of their career with you, what would you feel like you have failed if they don't have this, when they leave your team?

Glenn: [00:42:57] Oh, I think an [00:43:00] appreciation to operate in a collective unit, because there's so many times you get kids. When they're freshmen, look, you haven't raised them. Number one. So kids are raised a certain way and they're permitted to do things. I would say the kids that are spoiled as children.

and maybe not discipline to the level, every parent does it the way they do it, you know? So no criticism here because parenting I'm sure you'll say the same thing. You know, it's a difficult profession, the most difficult profession. But you combine that with top players.

Sometimes they're on club teams where they're coaches also allowing them to do whatever they want on the youth level. So if you combine getting spoiled as a kid, spoiled as an athlete, never really told, that's not the way we're doing this, you know, just because they're so great. And they're going to score 20 goals anyway.

So just let them go. And don't, those are the kinds of kids when, when they come into your program, it can sometimes be difficult. So that's why I say, you get a number of those kinds of kids, no [00:44:00] matter how much you recruit, get to know the families and everything else, sometimes you just don't really know till you get them and coach them every day.

But if a kid left any program, I had, whether it's club college and didn't have a greater appreciation for working as a unit and how important everybody is within that unit to be successful. And I would be disappointed with that. Yeah.

Phil: [00:44:22] And that's something I talk about a lot in the world outside of football is the idea of Really most teams in organizations.

If you have someone who'd never played team sports, and didn't really appreciate that well, that you just talked about, they really struggle in organizations as well. And so I think that that's something that we can as coaches. I don't care what level you're coaching at, that point there, that lesson that we learned from the game, I think is as important as any other lesson that we learned from the game in life.

Just anything that you do, that idea, the total is greater than the sum of its parts is, So I don't know that there's a better place you learn that than in team sports and [00:45:00] particularly in soccer where it is a weak link sport.

Glenn: [00:45:02] Well, you know, when I got out of college and I became a full-time sports director at a, at a local radio station but it was in the New York metropolitan area.

So I'd go to the U S Open. I go to everything, and I thought Oh, they're tennis players. I was so annoyed with almost all of them because they had such an overinflated value of their own self-worth it was unbelievable.  but there's a solo sport, they just it's them against the world and it's, they're playing doubles.

but my goodness and generally, tennis players come from the, they generally don't come from impoverished backgrounds. So, those athletes annoyed me. And I'd cover all the sports. They annoyed me more. They were ahead the largest egos, the least amount of respect for those around them.

You could say the way they carry themselves. And, it's a general statement. It doesn't point a finger at everybody. That's played the game of tennis at a high level, but those are the athletes. [00:46:00] I could care if I never had to cover another tennis match, let's put it that way.

Phil: [00:46:04] Hopefully the football players, not all of them.

I can think of a few in my head right now who may be, not be the most humble people in the world. But I think on the whole I've talked to some former EPL players and they say on the whole, you know, it really is a much better bunch character-wise than a lot of the sports that, we hear about, I think.

Yeah.

Glenn: [00:46:23] Well, the, but the most humble athletes and I bet you, it's still the same where we're hockey players. I mean, if I compare, cause I, cause the sports I've covered lots, I've covered basketball football. Soccer started covering the cosmos when I first got out of college before they folded.

But those guys were all international maniacs. So, the yeah, tennis, golf I believe that in, on hockey, but, but the NHL guy, they were just, but think about it when you look at the totem pole of who gets paid, the NHL is, and then soccer, soccer's beneath them now still, but.

I think they, they were just good guys, man. [00:47:00] I don't remember a, bad guy amongst them, Devils and Rangers, and I'm going years back, but I, tend to think it's still probably the same.

Phil: [00:47:08] Yeah. And you know, the hope is that we can have people come out of sport and there are people who you want to be with, you want to work with because they are learning how to play as a team.

And to your point, the way you have that question, that's where we hope for. And then I think the more coaches we get that are doing and talking about the things that we're talking about today, the better the chances we got at having that happening when they're leaving their teams.

So, with that, I think the last couple of questions, folks who listen regularly know these questions, but the first is how have you used the lessons you've learned directly from the beautiful game in your leadership and your marriage parenting and other areas outside the football pitch.

Glenn: [00:47:45] Well, we've probably addressed some of it, but I share it, I think raising a family, children and and coaching a soccer team, you know, there are many similarities. So, what I have found myself [00:48:00] doing over the years is sharing experiences with my kids, with my teams, things that come up, but also vice versa.

And I know this might, that's a little general and maybe a little vague, but I think it is important. if you're in a profession like ours coaching and you do and you do have children or. You have the birth of a child coming up or there is an overlap there. I mean, it's some of it's the discipline.

Some of it's the empowerment because our kids, and we learned this early, when they were eight, nine, 10, 11 years old, and maybe before that, I can't quite remember, but we started to let them just make little decisions about what we were doing as, a family. And again, it enhanced the experience.

So I just think, the beautiful well game just, the, the passion of it, I think the thing I've learned and I got this from Michael O'Neill, my assistant at Rutgers, he's one of the most passionate people in the sport. I know. And that's because he's a Celtic supporter, which he got from his father.

So he used to [00:49:00] take me when I first met him, he used to take me down to Carney, New Jersey to the Irish club and we would go in, this was a Celtic supporters club down the street. There was a ranger supporters club, at the Scottish club. And we would on a Sunday morning at 7:00 AM, watch the old Celtic-Rangers, with people, you know, with hundreds in this building, drinking, smoking, and I would bring my son down there.

And just so that he could absorb the atmosphere. It's different, you know, this is a European atmosphere that we've got here, but that passion, and I think I've carried that into sharing it with my teams, both on the collegial level, in the club level. And what I do with my club team now is that if there's a story to be told to help reinforce that I want them to watch a certain match.

Like if it's if the Manchester Derby I'll write up a little history of the Derby, you know, big moments and then say, now watch the game, and Kind of hard now when there's those supporters in the crowd, because that's where these kids, they, they don't get it, [00:50:00] you know, until they see that too.

So passion, I guess I rambled there a little bit, but to specify there's a lot of overlap between family and team because we all have to live together. We're all, not always going to be happy with each other and at the end of the day, hopefully we love it and those are worthy goals.

Phil: [00:50:18] One of the things you said reminded me. They absolutely are worthy goals. First of all, I definitely want to affirm that. Make sure people don't think that I didn't care about that statement. Absolutely agree. But the one thing that I heard there that really stuck out was when you said, you know, when they were.

Seven eight, nine, 10, 11, whatever day age that you started, giving them little, agency, just little bits of, you can choose this. You can choose that as you talked about with the team that you did, but I think the other principal in the game itself that really goes to that is something else you talked about, which is like the shape, So you have your shape in there, but there's that freedom within the structure too. And so I think that that is kind of what you were getting out there with the kids where you have a freedom within the structure. It doesn't change the fact that there is this so-called shape [00:51:00] in your family, that this is the structure.

This is the way it is. Mom and dad are making the decisions, but there is some freedom within this, too. and also, if I say, go do this, how you do it may not be as important as the end goal. if an outside back makes a run, that's okay. As long as other things happen to be able to cover for it.

So those are some things that I think that freedom within structure, I don't want to speak for you, but that's kinda what I, no, no.

Glenn: [00:51:24] And that's, that's why I love Pep so much because, so picture this. So we do this exercise. It's five channels. And from the back where the keeper is, as we build up until about two thirds of the way up the pitch, and this is all Pep, you need at least one person in those five zones that are vertical.

You just chop the field. And you know, so I've, I've made nine zones sometimes, cause you can, you can really go crazy. But the idea there is, to keep a certain shape and we kind of rigid in our request there or [00:52:00] demand that, you know, certain players have to remain in their position, but once we get close to the opponent's goal, whether it's the final that you want to call it the final third, or maybe even a little further out.

All bets are off, have a great task, go, go for it. And that's where, you know, the fullbacks can go inside. They can go around the street and entertain. And if you, you know, sometimes it's so satisfying when it works. but I also believe in it. And so you're giving the players a chance.

It's just like, okay. Time to whatever you come up with and you can run patterns and things like that in training to give them some ideas. But that's that would, when you were saying that it made me think of what I learned from pep.

Phil: [00:52:44] It keeps giving back to Pep and that's to me, always willing is amazing guy.

I love that all or nothing special on man city. That was a pretty amazing documentary to be able to get inside the mind and the club. It was fantastic. I thought. So speaking of things, we've [00:53:00] watched, you know, the last question we have for you, what have you read, watched or listened to whether recently, or just in the past that has impacted your thinking on how soccer explains life and leadership?

Glenn: [00:53:09] Well, I mentioned that Sam Lee article in The Athletic cause I just read it yesterday and it's just such a, it just talks about the, kind of the life of Pep Guardiola. It doesn't get into his family structure too much when it talks about how as a player, he was already coaching, you know, almost to the point where the, the coaching staff, I forget which coach it was, but just said he was, he was a pain, you know, they didn't, all he wanted to do is talk the game.

All they want to do is talk to the game, why things were happening. And what was interesting is that Johan Cruyff who he's first played for at Barcelona, when he was 18 years old, he's just said, you know, my grandmother can run faster than you and Skill and how you move the ball and things, but he, but he wasn't going to be able to fathom that Guardiola was going to be a part of this.

And two years later he was playing on [00:54:00] the first team because of his leadership because of his ability to read the game. And Pep always said his mind worked much faster than his legs did. and that's where, when you watch those bars will loan it to, you know, he set the table with the Barcelona and if you watch the scanning and the vision and the awareness and how they're playing in one and two touches while other players are taking the third and fourth.

And that's why things closed down. I mean, it's I do have this thing about how the game should be played and how it should look. And I prefer the buildup game, the possession game with a purpose, but I much rather watch that. And I get off on that more where there's a combine and line pullback, dummy finished, you know, rather than 60-yard service, second ball crashed the goal and score.

I mean, those are good goals too. Right. But I prefer the prettier version.

Phil: [00:54:58] Yep. The beautiful game got its [00:55:00] name for a reason, I think. And it's typically not the long ball on a counter, but unfortunately that's the way Solskaer's playing right now, too. I agree with, I like the build up a lot more to be able to have those boom boom booms.

That was interesting. You say that about Guardiola because even just watching him on the, This is Football on Amazon Prime on Messi, just watching him describe Messi's game. I don't know if you saw that episode of that documentary series, but to watch Guardiola, just to watch him describe Messi and then as they show Messi's field vision, it sounds like exactly what you described.

He doesn't move a whole heck of a lot, which is really, I think, surprising to a lot of people but he's smart. He's a super smart, obviously amazingly talented and skilled player, but if you take that smarts out of his game, he's not half the player. He is.

Glenn: [00:55:50] Yeah. And I was thinking I wanted to look this book up because I wanted to make sure I got it correct.

But The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Yeah. Something I've read before. This is, I haven't not read this book [00:56:00] recently. But I got with Mark Krikorian once who's the head coach at Florida state university, former U-19 coach on the women's side, became good friends with him. And he said, you got to get the five dysfunctions of team.

And it's a written by Patrick Lencioni and it was a very, and he said, you know, we use it every preseason to help our team prepare for things. And the other thing that I have learned to do over the years is, and that's where this dysfunctions book really put me into this mindset. Is that after you coached for long enough, You know, some of the things that are going to happen during the course of the year, that could be destructive to your team.

you know, somebody who's going to have a hard time with not playing, you know, that somebody is going to break curfew, you know, all these things are going to happen. So part of what this book prepares you to do as a team and as a coaching staff is to outline [00:57:00] ahead of time, basically tell the team, we know these things are going to happen.

So how are we going to handle it? You could get them in small groups, whatever it might be. So you know, things are gonna happen. You get the players to respond to it. And they're always going to say, no, this is, it would be bad for the team. If I handled it this way, I've got to handle it this way.

And then there are the course of the year it happens. And how do we respond sometimes favorably sometimes not, but you can always bring it back to that moment. And so preventative therapy is something and again, you have to coach for us supposed to know what everything that's going to happen over the course of the season.

But you just know, so any coach can utilize that at any level because it's and I have just found it to be. It's just like you hear people saying, they know something bad is going to come out in the news. So why don't I give it to you before the newspaper puts it out?

And then it won't seem as bad, you know? And like in the NCAA, your administrators will tell you, well, look, if you committed [00:58:00] a violation I don't want to find out from the NCAA. I want to find out from you. So don't be a, you'll still have to. suffer a bit, but it won't be as won't be as bad.

Phil: [00:58:08] That's right. Yeah. Patrick Lencioni is fantastic. And I, you know, like you just talked about there to be able to, and this goes for coaching. This goes for teams and soccer. This goes for organizations. This goes really for anything, is to prepare that foundation, the preventative medicine. So to speak, to take the airborne.

So you don't get sick because when you get sick, it's harder to heal. It's harder to, you know, do that. We don't want to just be dealing with symptoms. Let's get that as foundational structures solid in that five dysfunctions of a team. He also has a book called The Advantage that kind of goes deeper into that, but those are Lencioni is fantastic in that team, health, organizational health Absolutely recommend that along with you. So we could talk a lot longer Glenn, but our time is up for today, but thank you so much for being a part of this. Thanks for all that you're doing. I, again, folks, go listen to it. We'll have it in the show notes, all those different era ways.

You can hear more from Glenn. If you enjoyed this, you'll get [00:59:00] more of it there. So thank you so much for being a part of this today.

Glenn: [00:59:02] You're quite welcome, Phil. Thanks for inviting me.

Phil: [00:59:06] Well, again folks, thank you for being a part of this show. Thank you for joining the conversation. I look forward to hearing from you, whether it's on Facebook, whether you send me an email at phil@howsoccerexplainsleadership.com.

If you have any other guests that you'd want us to get on this show, please go ahead and share those with us. And most importantly, I do hope that you're taking all that you're learning on this show and you're using it to help you in your leadership. You help you to understand better and better each and every day.

How soccer explains life and leadership. Thanks a lot. Have a great week.